Demon Copperhead – Barbara Kingsolver – Episode 119
The Buddies popped open a bottle of Appalachian moonshine and dove into Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver. If you enjoy listening to a light-hearted comedic book podcast navigate a relentless parade of poverty, addiction, and child abuse while desperately trying to keep things light, this episode is for you! The Buddies got to discussing the benefits of rural living, stereotypes, and what Sarah McLachlan, Nas, and Kendrick Lamar have in common with this book. So join us for the most uncomfortable ‘funny’ book club discussion this side of Appalachia!
Intro/Book Report (0:00-3:11)
Stock Up/Down (3:12-40:22)
Favorite Scene/Character (40:23-43:53)
Love/Hate (43:54-51:00)
Conclusion (51:01-54:30)
NEXT BOOK: Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman
Transcript for SEO purposes 🙂
Alright. Welcome to book club. I’m Dylan here with a man whose voice numbs my pain better than any drug on the market. Keith, what’s up, buddy? Hey.
How we doing? I’m here with d man, not demon. Just to to make sure we’re not confused there. Oh, that was that’s some low hanging fruit. Really for you.
Yeah. I would do it. We’re at the Buddy Book Club. We’re reading out some bestsellers, and this week, we’ll be discussing Barbara Kingsolver or Kingsolver? Whatever.
I’m not sure. Her 2022 hit Bill Dunsgrohman novel, which is like a coming of age type thing. You have to look it up. The novel is Demon Copperhead. If you’d like to recommend a book for us to read or reach out to us many past episodes, you can visit our website, buddybookclub.com, or sign into our, DMs, Twitter, Instagram, Buddy Book Club podcast.
You can listen to us, iTunes, Spotify, wherever you’re podcast, please download, give us five star review. You can talk shit after that, but five stars would be nice. If nothing, give us a follow on social channels, please. And thank you, Keith, four four eight on Goodreads. Pretty, pretty good.
I think we might be, I don’t know, numb to Goodreads at this point, or at least me considering we just read Fourth Wing. That was, like, four five eight, and that didn’t hit home for me. The wife’s been pushing for this one for a while. She really liked it, and I’m interested to hear your take. I feel like our wheelhouse is would you say it’s, like, You fantasy sci fi?
Yeah. Throw in some thriller, maybe some action. So this is more of, like, a literary novel. Like, this is a heavy hitter, so we’ll we’ll see. I’m interested to hear your take, but I got a book report for you.
So I’m gonna fire that up if you’re ready for me, professor. Get it. If you’re into modern takes of literary classics, boy, do I have the book for you. The book is pretty much Dickens’ David Copperfield, except you swap out Victorian England with contemporary Appalachia, Alcohol with oxies, and writing as a means out of poverty with drawing, cartoons, graphic novels, whatever you like. If you like to read as a means of escape and you like to feel good after reading, this may not be the book for you.
All the terrible childhood tropes are neatly packaged into an orange pill bottle and force fed you one page after another until you find yourself passing on the couch frothing at the mouth with your significant other slapping you back from the brink. Is it a good novel? Yeah. I thought so. Demon is a well thought out nuanced character who you can’t stop rooting for even when life continues to swift kick him in the balls.
Although, tropey at times, it’s well written novel that hits you right in the feels. So that’s my book report, and I’m ready to talk about it. Okay. I like it. Here is where I won’t be subjective.
I think objectively, that was an a minus. Subjectively, I’m gonna make probably people that like this book and Caroline not very happy because I think you did a good job covering it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, wait wait to not bury the lead.
I appreciate you just going straight for saying you’re not a fan. Let’s get into some stock up stock now, Keith. Stock up. What do you got? Stock up stereotypes?
Mhmm. A big theme of this book Pardon me? Yeah, is that is that stereotyping and stereotypes of people, especially southern people, is kinda lazy, which I agree. I completely agree with. I hate when you’re watching a TV show and he’s got just a side character will come in and you’re just like, oh, they have to stereotype and make this character this thing.
So they’re gonna do the most obvious things. Like, oh, that’s a hillbilly. He’s dumb. He’s southern. Mhmm.
He’s a racist. He’s what you know, all these things that you just, like, have them kind of assign to someone just because they have an accent, which, yeah, I think is just lazy. I always roll my eyes when I see it. Yeah. And this book talks about that a lot, how, like, people need these these regions are painted in that way.
That’s a really good point, like, how must be tough to grow up seeing that. And then you read the book and you realize, oh, no, the stereotypes are completely right based off this book. They’re complaining about them not being educated. Everyone there doesn’t care about school. They try to bring up all these things, especially Angus, to make school more a priority.
And they’re like, we don’t care about this. Let’s that’s football. Football is more important than school. So it’s like, oh, okay. So education check.
That’s they’re not they don’t care about education. That’s the stereotype. You’re proving that in this book. Everyone in this in this part book is kind of, like, a little bit heartless or, like, in, like, mean spirited, it seems like. You You know?
It seems like everyone’s up for themselves. Everyone is kinda going with the flow. There’s, like, maybe two or three characters that are actually good people, it seems like. And, obviously, some of that is just based off of how they grow up and their conditions like that. But, again, all these things, these stereotypes, I’ve read this, I’m like, oh, okay.
I guess the stereotypes we hear about are real. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a good point in that they are saying, you know, about these stereotypes, and a lot of the characters are these stereotypes. The other thing that they’re saying in the book though as well is that we, as in the government or, the capitalistic society or whatever I mean, I’m gonna just talk more about that anyways. But these corporations have kind of created this effect in this area where by kind of making sure that people remain in poverty Mhmm.
That these those kind of those kinds of people will, like you said, will be perpetuated. And, you know, I don’t know. There’s a famous quote, like, no society is more than three meals away from revolution or whatever the case is. Mhmm. And I think that’s part of the idea in here where so many of these people are legitimately hungry.
Like, there’s so much poverty going on that they’re actually hungry, including demon at many times in this book. And I think about that sometimes how hangry I get after, like, missing one meal or, like, not sleeping well one night, and this is just people’s lives. Yeah. You know? Every day, they’re either missing meals, having shitty meals, not sleeping because they’re spending their entire day taking care of their families or out hustling for drugs and then working hard, menial jobs.
So I do agree, but I think it’s more nuanced than what you’re saying. Well, the problem is too is is the whole point of our podcast, and the thing is not to be nuanced. It’s supposed to be trying to just to be lighthearted. So this is gonna be impossible. This is a tough book for us.
Yeah. This is tough. I’m like I’m it’s not gonna be a stereotype because I think it’s funny, and I’m joking. But at the same time, I was saying it, and I’m like, oh, I feel like this is too serious now that I’m saying it out loud because this book is just such a dark, like, mysterious subject. So can we get that out front that I’m joking?
Yeah. And this one’s gonna be tough for us, I feel like, in general because we especially when it comes to pay grade. Yeah. Yeah. One, it’s definitely above our pay grade.
And two, it’s it’s it’s a serious book with serious subject matter, and we often deal with books that are in different fantastical realms that don’t like, you can make fun of all of those things because they don’t even exist. You know? It’s it’s an absurdity, so why not just start throwing shade? When when we try to have fun with this one and it’s dealing with serious things like drug overdoses and big pharma coming into a small community and absolutely ruining it and then taking all the money and running, it it it’s tough to make jokes about. So just ahead of time, if you could if you could all give us some grace here, if we if we we make a few few blunders.
I won’t be stocking up, like, Narcan or something like that. But That’s a good one. I don’t know why not. But Yeah. I should I should have.
Yeah. So, but what’s funny about your stereotype thing was I didn’t really notice it. I mean, I didn’t notice it too too much or it didn’t jump out to me. But, legitimately, like, two hours before we started recording this, the wife’s watching some Kate Hudson basketball show on Netflix. That’s fucking terrible.
But one of the characters that just, like, happened to come in in the episode I was watching was one of the basketball players’ moms, and she’s got a southern accent. She’s a southern woman. What did she say she did to help raise her kid? She stripped, naturally. And who is her She’s not a rich southern because of those two stereotypes, the redneck and the No.
The redneck version. And what, who did she identify as her favorite feminist, Paula Deen? And what did she decide to make her son for dinner now that she’s in town? Trash can chicken is what she was talking about. So as I’m watching this, I’m just like demon is like, the whole demon story is coming into my head.
I was like, oh my god. This is just such a blatant and terrible and not really funny stare I mean, nothing about it was was funny. It was just It was supposed to be funny, though? I it’s a comedy. So like, the show is a comedy.
And it shows her making this trash can chicken and talking about how salmonella is, like, a deep state, like, lie or or something. I I was very confused. And I think maybe the book has kind of made those things not that funny. I’m I’m wondering the only one I can enjoy, I think, is Kenneth from thirty Rock as someone from, like, Appalachia. That’s, that’s actually a funny guy, but that’s more that he was just, like, sheltered and didn’t know know anything about the world.
Yeah. You didn’t need to be Southern for that. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
He could’ve been whatever. My first stock up is rural living. So, you know, I mean, in this book, if you take out the rampant drug abuse, single trailer living, and green tobacco poisoning, outside of that, I’m all for it. You know, there’s there’s a natural beauty to it. I think the literal kind with with the beautiful mountains and woods.
But, you know, then the metaphorical kind with just people living off what they make on their own lands, doing some hunting and fishing, you know, swapping one thing for another with their neighbors, a little moonshine. Who doesn’t love a little shine? The idea you can just, like, keep your doors unlocked and no no one even knows where their house keys are. You know everyone in town. You know, Demon was even saying when he went to, when he went to rehab that all of his friends in rehab were blown away that he still had a license because they had gotten so many DUIs.
And he was like, oh, well, in my town, all the cops are, you know, people you went to high school with or whatever the case is, like, no one would give you a DUI. Like, it just doesn’t happen. You know? And then just being entertained by your own means, not kinda needing the the big entertainment a city live in. I thought there was a there’s a there’s a beauty to that, so I had to respect it because that’s all I got.
I agree with that. I feel like just living out by by yourself sometimes like that is kinda does also suck. When you need to drive, like, 20 miles to, like, the grocery store, it’s like, oh, this isn’t as fun. Hey. It’s 26.
That was the one part I was thinking about when you’re a kid and you have a bike, and the second you get a bike when you have a kid when you’re a kid, you’re like, this is freedom. I can now do whatever I want. I can go wherever I want. I can do anything. In these places, you need a dirt bike or something.
There’s no way you’re gonna actually get anywhere with a pedal power. Yeah. Being further away from things would would kinda suck. Growing up in the suburbs, the best of both worlds where you you gotta have grocery store that’s somewhat close by, but also you’re not in the city. So I thought that was that was an interesting line that was in the book.
He said, in the city, you’re surrounded by everything that’s dead because it’s just like bricks and concrete. And when you live in outside of the city, you see grass and trees and rolling meadows, whatever the case is. It’s like the world is alive. There’s animals everywhere and stuff. And in the city, it’s just all concrete jungle situation.
So, I like I like I like that line. What else do you have for stock up? The ick stock up. The ick? Are are you familiar with this, Darren?
No. What is that? Ick is like, so, apparently, this is like the new age thing. Someone does something and immediately, you’re like, oh, I’m not attracted to that person or they’re, like, rubbing the wrong way now. Oh, like, one specific thing?
Yeah. Like, oh, he wore socks with his sandals. You you gave me the ick. You know? I keep like, now I don’t see him the same way anymore.
Yeah. Caroline hasn’t looked at me the same since I hawked up a loogie, and I showed it to her on my tongue. Well, so we intro get introduced to you all, the character. Yeah. All of our guy immediately gives me the ache.
He gets out of the car. They’re like, no. We’re not going with this guy. This is the most creepy, disgusting looking, terrible person we’ve ever seen. Every single thing about him screams creep.
And they describe him, they’re like, he was a pale Irishman. That’s it. I was like, wait a sec. Wait, what? That’s you.
They’re like, yeah. Yeah. He’s just he’s just an Irish person. I was like, oh. So, yeah, the ick is, is a little bit tough for, certain people, but another stereotype that proved correctly.
You know? He was like, this guy looks like a creep. He was a creep. He wasn’t a terrible, terrible person. So believe in the believe in stereotypes.
I’m I’m I’m off to a hot start. Two for two. He didn’t touch Angus. Right? He just, like trying to.
I know. But it was so creepy when she was, like, explaining it. Or I don’t know who’s I think it was from Damon’s perspective or whatever. But he was saying something about how U Haul, like, watched her bathe as a child or something. And I was like, oh, god.
Like I I was hoping he’d be do anything, though. Right? A good character because it’d been nice that one person isn’t exactly what you kinda think they are in this book. Every single person, they introduced him, and they’re like, here’s who he was, but his faults are this. He then and he just does all the things that are his fault.
But no no one ever changed. Everyone was exactly the same throughout the book. It’s like Dory, I guess, potentially started off, and you’re thinking, oh, wow. She’s a great person who just takes care of her dad. And then all of a sudden, she’s in the car, like, shooting morphine patches between her toes.
So there was a coup a brief moment where he thought she was someone else, and then it turned out to her. Fast forward. Fast forward was, like, super fun to be around and cool. Turns out, though, he was a super selfish, terrible person. And then for the rest of his life, he’s like that also.
It’s like it’s like Yeah. And then then, like, Roe Rose or I think that’s the character’s name, Rose, his, like, foster sister or whatever the case was, she has that giant scar on her face. And she’s like, oh, by the way, Fast Forward gave me this as a child. Also, he strung up my brother and told him to jump so he would strangle himself. It’s like, what the fuck?
It’s tough when there’s not a lot of positive like, the only positive role models, really. I guess, like, the Peggots were decent people. So Ah. Peggots sucked. The the Peggots were just kinda keeping things under control as best they could.
You know? They weren’t going out of whatever. Aunt June was obviously a a saint, And then his teachers, mister Arnold or whatever the case was, they There was only one positive role male role model. Right? It was mister mister Arnold, you said.
Right? The the teacher. Armstrong. Yeah. He him and his wife were really the only positive peep they were characters in the story, but they were almost those things in stories that are outside the the act like, they’re not characters.
They’re more like themes. Mister Armstrong was a well educated from a big city, like, spoke, didn’t have an accent. They’re like, this is the good guy. Yeah. That’s true.
That’s a good point. My next stock up is high school sports leading to popularity and women throwing themselves at you. So Pretty much stuff. As a varsity athlete yourself, you know, on the swim team, you should have yeah. You played lacrosse.
Yeah. That’s the varsity sport. No. You stop it. You were a varsity athlete on the swim team.
That means you’re in a speedo. Alright? You should have firsthand knowledge of this. Yeah. Was that your experience in high school?
When I wore that varsity swim jacket, let me tell you, kid. You had to beat them off with a stick. It was it was tough. Who exactly were you beating off? That’s the question.
Someone like U Haul? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So you’re saying that was that was not your that was not your high school experience? I think football players in most high schools are, like, I mean, in our high school, the football players are popular. Yeah. Ours ours too, granted, like, it wasn’t that that big of a deal. But Yeah.
I I’ve always wished to be able to have my Friday night lights experience. Not me personally, but to see it happen. You know, just this idea of these people on campus are celebrities even though they’re your peers. It just seems so weird to me because I went to you, at least, you went to a big college, like a big d one football college. So you would see those people on campus.
Right? And they must have been the big men on campus. Yeah. They went to school for football. Yeah.
Even in Demon Copperhead, they said the football players were just doing whatever. The teachers just gave them gave them grades. They weren’t actually, like, doing doing the schooling part. But yeah. Because I went to a high school where in football and we live in the Northeast or we grew up in the Northeast, so it wasn’t there’s no big football programs that are crazy.
And, also, I went to a small college in the Northeast. No one on campus was super cool, but it would be interesting to be in those Texas high schools or those small Southern towns that it’s Friday night is is crazy, and those kids can do whatever whatever they want. It’d be it’d just be interesting to see in person. Yeah. What else do you have for stock up?
Just a quick one. The the phrase beat like a red headed stepchild, stock up. So we we saw that. Yeah. That that’s fun.
That’s it. We saw it. I also did see something where they asked what’s the the highest determiner of domestic abuse for kids. And they’re like, oh, poverty? Like, no.
Drugs? No. It’s all these things they list off, and the guy’s like, no. It’s having a step parent in the house. That’s the, like, the biggest factor.
30 pegs. Yeah. Which I thought was interesting. Well, I can tell you as a child of divorce, I have never been beat. So, stock down.
Guess I should have been. You’re putting the percentages down. Alright. Yeah. Exactly.
But, yeah. That’s that’s interesting. But I think that probably makes sense on a psychological level. You’re just like, fuck this kid. I didn’t pick him.
There’s a lot to be said about apathy. I feel like that I was gonna stock up that, just that, like, not caring. If this kid is doing stuff you don’t like, who cares? It’s not your kid. That’s, like, the best thing in the world.
It’s like, whatever. Doesn’t bother me. I I don’t get that. You know? Yeah.
Well, that’s what the drugs are for. The drugs just make you not care. And and then you nod off. So So we needed, what was his stepfather’s name? Stoner?
Stoner. Yeah. Stoner. That he was not very stoner. Alright.
Never mind. He was against the stereotype. Most stoners are the opposite of what he was. So alright, break break in one stereotype. There we go.
I mean, he did start to get on stoner’s good side when he told me he was going out for football, and he started lifting weights and stuff. And stoner was like, woah. You’re talking like traps and, and glutes? And and he said, yeah. Quadriceps.
And and they they had a brief moment where they were into each other. But it’s also so I felt the beginning of the story, I felt so bad for demon. Like, throughout the story, you obviously feel bad for him because, like, things just keep going his way not going his way. But later on, they’re more self inflicted where at the beginning and, obviously, they’re self inflicted because of the things that happened at the beginning. But at the beginning, he all he wanted to when he didn’t have a foster family, he was, like, willing to stay with Stoner, who he hated, but he was hoping Stoner would adopt him.
That’s how terrible his outlook was. It’s like, okay. The peggots don’t want me. I’m hoping Stoner wants me. Otherwise, I’m going into foster care, and then you just you’re thinking, why?
It couldn’t be worse than that. But then you get, creaky farm, and it’s like, oh, shit. I guess I guess I guess it can be worse. My last stock up and super, super duper quick one. But the ocean stock up got just it has to be because, one, demon’s looking for it the whole time.
We still don’t see him find it. Yeah. Can we talk about the ending? How I mean, you give me twenty hours, and we don’t even get an ending. What what was that?
What What do you mean? He’s tickling his sister on the back of her neck. That was even worse. You didn’t you didn’t like that? I was gonna talk about that.
Stereotype. Yeah. Roll tide, stereotypes. The worst part of it was he was just like, why? I wouldn’t be attracted to her.
She’s like my sister. And then literally three pages later, he’s like, I really like her. I was like, oh, god. What’s the name of this? Yeah.
No. They loved each other. It was nice, and they didn’t even end up seeing the ocean. But as someone who lives close to the ocean, I can confirm it is pretty cool. So, demon, come on down my way.
You can check it out firsthand. I mean, if you’re gonna make a book, though, that’s 99% negative, if you’re gonna close out positively, you can’t just be like, and that was that. He got sober, and, they want to go visit the ocean. We’re not gonna talk about that. That’s it.
What did what did you wanna see? You needed to see him go to the ocean and be blown away by the ocean. Remember when he, like, goes up to, like, the top of the the mountain and he’s, like, and then this person was talking to me and then this person was talking to me. And if I make it to the the next morning, I’ll go to rehab. Alright.
This is the most cliche dumb shit ever. Get me that of the ocean instead. Why are we in a mountain for that? Yeah. I don’t know.
Is that when he met the German people and, like, they he showed them how to make boats with leaves and stuff, that one. I have it as in my head. I mean, you didn’t read The Road, but this is The Road. It was like, oh, it’s really well written. It’s just a depressing book that it doesn’t have any I’m sure there’s deeper meanings that I don’t get.
There’s no story. It’s a twenty hour Sarah MacGain without ability to donate at the end. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just, like, look how terrible this is for everyone.
There’s no point of view really other than it’s just terrible, and then stereotypes are real. And then, like, you get done. What what are you supposed to feel? The story’s a little bit he did this and then he did that and then he did this and then he did that and the story’s over. There’s not even a lot of callbacks.
It doesn’t seem like because he got abandoned now, he feels this it’s just like and then he got addicted to drug. Right when he started getting into drugs, I was like, I don’t wanna read this book anymore. I would’ve stopped if it weren’t for the book club. I was, like, so depressed reading it. I was getting nightmares.
And then Yeah. But it’s just so cliche. You’re like, well, his girlfriend’s gonna die, and then he’s gonna have to get sober or he’ll just die. That’s the only two options of this story. That’s it.
Yeah. There’s no other story to this. But because of that is what kept me reading because I was like, is he could very well just die. You know, that could be the end of But I wouldn’t mind it. I mean, if you wanna make it The last 50 pages are just blank.
That’s actually an interesting idea for a book is if you don’t look at the back and they make it seem like it’s a really long book, but then the main character dies and the rest of the pages are blank, oh, now we’re talking. But that’s my point is that if you’re gonna make it a such a cynical, terrible, terrible book the whole time, then fine. Finish it cynically. That’s what don’t give me three pages of and then things ended up good. No.
Nothing’s good. What how is this good? There’s no positive ending to this. He was tickling the back of his sister’s neck. Come on, man.
That is good. Oh. What’d you have for stock down? How much time you got, feller? Validation stock down?
I think validation and praise are always nice to receive. I mean, the reason that, you know, we get one one five star review, hint to, and that that, like, keeps me going for six months. You know, that’s that’s all I need. But the two areas that I think most people most seek out validation is athletics and arts. Yeah.
You think about sports and being a famous sports person or the Oscars or Grammys or whatever and, like, the acceptance speeches of being the best and all that stuff. Right? Those are the two areas. Daemon’s great at both of these. He’s getting validated constantly in both these areas.
He’s then getting paid, which is, like, unheard of to be 17 or 18 years old getting paid for your art. That’s, like, it’s not that’s not something that ever happens. You have to be a prodigy also that you have to kinda, like, build a name yourself. So this is not a thing that ever happens. He’s just getting paid, and he’s taking that for granted.
I mean, obviously, he just doesn’t understand that how talented he is. But, like, he’s getting validations left and right. And He’s got demons. He’s got demons. Demons got demons.
It’s hard for it to matter when you’re on painkillers all the time. Yeah. Okay. That’s true. But, like, the story, I think, is a lot worse for someone like Maggot.
For someone like demon who his childhood was so terrible awful. I felt so bad for him. Then he gets in a situation where he has a good home. He has a sister. He money coming in now.
He is a popular, tall, attractive, very, very talented sports athlete and artist. He’s all these things going for him throws him away. And you’re like, alright. Well, why do I feel bad for him? A guy like Maggot is socially awkward.
He he’s growing up in a backward town as someone that’s gay. Yeah. He’s like, he has such a tougher life. Mhmm. Even though he he grew up with his grandparents and he’s that that’s a little bit better.
He’s still growing in a trailer. He’s and again, like, the social awkwardness and those things, that makes it much harder life for him. So I feel by the end, I was like, oh, Maggot’s the person we should be feeling bad for, not demon. I don’t know. Did you feel that at all?
I mean, yes. I definitely felt bad for Maggot, especially when at the end because he was snorting meth with the other cousin that was in love with his cousin. Oh, yeah. They were cousins. Right?
Well, through marriage. Charters. Yeah. Yeah. It was not not blood.
Yeah. That’s for later. Yeah. You know, that’s not necessarily his fault that whatever happened to him because they snorted meth off the dashboard together, and yet Maggot’s gonna get in trouble for that. Maggot was more of, like, pitiful sadness because just nothing could go his way.
But at the same time, he had the Peggot. Like, he had his grandparent, and, obviously, his mom’s situation is terrible. Like, her being in an abusive relationship and going at her husband and then going to jail Even his terrible. Was like, I’m not gonna send him to rehab. That’s a waste of time.
He’s not talented or skilled enough. Do you know who do you think Maggot? Do you know who Maggot reminded me of? You’ve seen The Sopranos and you hated it. But do you remember when Vito died and his son went straight goth?
No. Oh god. That’s who I was picturing Magna as the whole time, who’s which if you see it, just Google a picture Vito’s son goth. And, yeah. If I’m gonna hear another stroke story, which I’ve seen every single possible one at this point.
If we’re gonna see it, can we get through the eyes of maybe someone that’s not oh, he got sober, and now his life can be very, very good because he’s extraordinary. What about the person that doesn’t isn’t attractive and isn’t popular and isn’t a so is socially awkward, dude? Like, how about that person? Like, that seems like that person has a reason to do drugs. What about them?
That that seems more of a concern to me. I don’t know. I think as humans, we’re we feel worse about wasted talent, and that’s what that’s what demon is Mhmm. Where Maggot is just a waste of life, as sad as that is. You know what I mean?
As sad as that is. It’s just demon has all these innate abilities, and he’s wasting them on on drugs. So that’s Yeah. That’s stuff. My first stock down and really my only I guess I have another one, but it is, capitalism.
Yay, capitalism. So, you know, there’s intrinsic positive aspects to living in a free market capitalist society, but with that comes, like, five of the seven deadly sins headlined by Greed. And this book outlines a pretty fucked up design system where big industrialists come into a community for their natural resources, which in this case is, like, coal and timber, and then limits the jobs that locals can get just so they’re pretty much have to work for the mine or be unemployed. And then if they wanna spend their money that they earn, which isn’t a lot, they have to spend it at these these businesses that are owned by the mining company or the logging company that are the prices are exorbitant because that’s all that they have in town. And so they have to spend all their money there and then they keep they purposely keep the populace uneducated so they can’t leave the cycle.
And then, you know, basically have to work super hard, get injured, don’t have workers’ comp or whatever the case is. So then if you add in a total piece of shit family like the the the Sacklers, who are the people that own Purdue Pharma, they just those people that come in and they prey on these communities by forcing addictive tank killers down their throats, you know, purely for for profits. So capitalism, it’s worked for America to become what it is, but at the same time, it’s pretty shitty. I don’t know. I think it’s funny when and we obviously weren’t there for cold war type stuff.
But the idea that if you were communist you can’t, like, turn the country communist, and and I don’t think I’m but it seemed like that was a real fear, and people were getting, you know, thrown in jail or, you you know, losing their jobs because they just believed that this capitalist society wasn’t what they wanted to part participate in. Mhmm. So it’s just funny to me that that whole thing existed and all this whole red scare. Our parents lived through it, but it didn’t seem like it was crazy for them. I’d be interested to hear the take of someone who actually, like, experienced shittiness at that time.
I think your larger point is that, we prop up capitalism even though we don’t really put any checks in place or anything like that because in the name of communism, like, or anti communism rather. Yeah. Or they just say you’re a socialist or you’re communist or whatever the case is. And and that’s what the, you know, the bureaucracy is supposed to check these things, but they don’t. And that’s I mean, did you watch did you watch Dopesick on Hulu?
No. It was really, really well done. Mhmm. And you saw The Big Short, though. Right?
Yes. I mean, it’s the same same but different kind of situation where it’s very clear and obvious that all these people did terrible, terrible things. And at the end, no one goes to jail. Nothing happens. That’s what I was gonna say is it seems like they should just a big easy fix to this would just be make people criminally liable, not just financially.
Oh. Because the finance doesn’t pay for it. Oh, no. Absolutely not. I mean, the big fix to it is to do a Game of Thrones thing, and you you Ned Stark these people, and you just walk you walk them out and you cut their head off on live TV.
Like, I’m I’m all for it. That’s that’s what you do. They asked, Theo Vaughn. They asked him they’re like, well, what’s the one thing you would do if you became president? And he just said, oh, I just execute the the those, pharma people that you just mentioned there.
Yes. The people? Sacklers? Yeah. Yeah.
He says, I just execute them, and I didn’t know who those they were. And I was, like, oh, that’s that’s a pretty good answer. Yeah. That’s a that’s a funny answer instead of being like, well, here’s what I do for him. He’s like, no.
I just kill these people. I was like, oh, wow. Okay. A %. I am, I’m not a violent person by any means, but it’s just so fucked up that you can do this kind of stuff to people because you have money.
And and it’s and it’s a trickle down effect because not only are you fucking up these whole societies now or these, like, communities now, but then the poverty, you know, the poverty, the abuse. We haven’t even talked about, you know, the whole foster care situation, but just everything just becomes because of you pieces of shit who are looking to make a couple extra bucks. It’s so it’s just so fucked up. I know that and because we read sci fi books, and I think about Foundation and some other stuff like that, where they’re looking for kind of the the perfect plan for society. And capitalism definitely does some stuff right, but it does so much wrong.
Once again, this is not our this is not our wheelhouse, but it gets me it just gets my it gets my wheels wheels spinning. Yeah. And I always try to then look at it from, like, a sci fi type perspective, like an alien looking down at the earth being, like, is this the right way to go about things? Probably not. Probably not.
There probably should be some closer levels of equality going on. Did you have any other stock downs? Trying to make a little bit of lighthearted here, but I stuck down, Willis McGahee. Patriots linebacker? No.
Raven’s running back. Oh, who was I thinking about? Oh, Willie McGinnis. This book is is written in the 1990 like, that’s when he grew up and into the February. So it was basically right when we were going to high school.
Like, that’s I think demon is, like, a in our year, like, a couple years around us. Like, we grew up at that time. It’s written like it’s in, like, 1900. They’re like, what? That’s this whole big city thing.
It’s like, you guys have cable. You have cable TV. Isn’t it? It’s not crazy. For you.
No. But they he said, like, we weren’t even getting cable anymore at one point. Oh, yeah. He did. I was like, so people are like it’s not like there’s no TVs or anything.
Like, I know they might not have Internet because they don’t probably don’t have a lot of computers, but the communication is significant at this time. They’re talking about musicians and things like that. So you’re listening to music. You’re you’re hearing all this stuff. You’re not like in this little bubble, like, which they’ve kind of make it seem like where Mhmm.
They don’t know anything that’s going on. It didn’t really make a lot of sense. So the reason I’m very well with Wes McGahee is I’m a football guy. He was the number two of all the running backs I’ve seen in my life. He’s probably the the second best running back I’ve ever seen behind Adrian Peterson in terms of coming out of college.
Yeah. He tore all three ligaments of his knee on in the last game. This is in 02/2003. So this is, like, this is a big story when we were in high school. I don’t know if you remember that.
Mhmm. Of course. ACL surgery and knee surgeries is at that time, wasn’t this, like, unheard of thing. Like, it it it was almost like this is, like, out of, like, Friday Night Lights, like, in the late seventies or early eighties when that was when, like, someone tore their ACL and they’re, like, well, they’re they’re never playing again. Like, this wasn’t it was pretty common.
So the fact that he tears his ACL or whatever he did to his knee, it sound like the tear torn ACL. And they’re like, well, we don’t know what to do. Or you’re like, oh, I can’t have surgery. It’s like, this is commonplace. This isn’t even, like, that crazy anymore.
Yeah. It seemed like coach would have dealt with this before. Yeah. And it wasn’t okay. And I understand that they’re trying to make a point about the health care system that’s gonna take him so many weeks to get in there.
Whatever the case is, I get that that that point is made. But at the same time, there would be a plan. It would be, yeah, you have you need to get this checked out. You have a ACL, a meniscus injury, whatever the case is. We’re gonna get you in there and look to fix you right up.
Maybe because this this was a football book, obviously. But if you’re into football and this is Townsville into football, you wouldn’t be you’d be aware of football in general and just general things like this. Yeah. These these injuries would happen, and he wouldn’t be the first person in town to ever have torn his ACL. Yeah.
It was also funny, like, Tommy, who’s his friend that worked at the newspaper, was initially hired to, like, set type, was to, like, you know, put the letters on the page that the printing press would work. I was like, what century is it? They’re like, they have computers at this point, Tommy. Yeah. There’s a lot of things where they’re like and then Usher came on the radio.
I was like, wait. What? Like, Usher? I’m like, oh, yeah. This must be like, because it’s it’s written like it’s in first note I wrote was like, this reminds me of Grapes of Wrath.
It’s a new age version of David Copperfield, and David Copperfield set in Victorian England. So I I was wondering, was she trying to make it seem more like that even though it was contemporary? But then she kept throwing contemporary references out there. And a bit of my online research here was the biggest qualm that people had with this book seemingly was that none of the timelines really made sense. Like, he was talking about Carrie Underwood, and based on the time when he would have been talking about it, Carrie Underwood hadn’t even been on American Idol, and he was referencing Carrie Underwood.
And then some other stuff that he was referencing didn’t actually happen yet. Some people got really deep in the weeds where they were saying, I’m from Lee County. The high school that he goes to didn’t even open until 2012. That stuff, I don’t care so much about. And the former stuff, I’m not really sure because we’re also hearing this from a narrator in the future who spent most of the time when he was talking about those bits of the story when he was on drugs.
And so kind of messing up the, yeah, unreliable narrator type situation seems totally fair to me. But I will say that there was some of it, like the knee thing and Tommy typesetting that I was I was very confused sometimes. Like, wait. What year is it? I forgot that it was the February.
Yeah. He was saying that he did he didn’t have cable so they could watch That’s So Raven, and I was like, I think That’s So Raven was on Disney Channel. And That’s when they definitely canceled because they ran out of money. So they were No. But that’s what they could watch.
No. They could watch. He said we could only watch it. Oh, yeah. That was on Disney Channel.
Yeah. And The View and, like, Maury. And and and I didn’t have cable, so I know these shows. He said, yes. Tell me more.
The Ricky Lake Show. Yes. I know it. But then he said, That’s a Raven. I was like, no.
I had to go to my friend’s houses to watch that’s a raven. I mean, what? We’re on to him. I gotcha. My last lockdown is and I have to do it.
It’s macabre because you brought it up on the last Yeah. On the last podcast. Was you were talking about macabre, and and we have a whole family of Macabre in this one. And A little toad nose too. Exactly.
Got us talk down it because, they were total pieces of shit. And just the whole foster care situation scene. Like, they show they show the woman the bedroom that he’s gonna sleep in, and she’s like, alright. Cool. And it’s like, oh, actually, that’s not your bedroom.
You’re sleeping in this laundry room slash bathroom slash dog room. And he was like, oh, alright. Like, curled up on some old dirty clothes. Do you have any other stock downs? Last one quick one.
Comic book origin story stock down. Okay. Not not because of the heroes that demon wrote. I thought those were actually kinda cool. I thought it was gave us some good ideas.
But the fact that not one, but two characters in this book had the Joker smile scars. Two people had that, which is crazy to me. I thought that was Where was the other one? Rose or whatever her name is and who? Maggot’s mom had it and then, yeah, Rose.
Right. Right. And not one reference to Joker even though he loves comic books. Not just what like, what are we doing here? How is this possible?
You did two references or two things, but not no one says anything but the Joker? Come on. Yeah. That’s a good point. Yeah.
Yeah. And he seemed like more of a Marvel than a DC guy. Well, also, we talked about X Men a bunch on the last pod. And in this one at the beginning, they he talks about the X Men cartoon, like, our favorite cartoon that we talk about. Great great theme song.
And in the audiobook, the narrator does the tries to do how like, a, but he doesn’t know it, obviously. They didn’t get the narrator to do the research actually look it up. So he’s like, and it’s like, woah, bro. Get it right. It’s Come on.
You’re a special guest for that. Yeah. Yeah. A %. Tap me in.
What about favorite characters? Do you have a favorite character? I mean, we got demon. There’s tons of characters in this. Demon, Angus, Maggot, Emmy, Aunt June, Dory, Fast Forward, the Peggots, Meemaw, Betsy, Uncle Dick, Coach, U Haul.
I think the clearer one is Angus. Not because she’s the smartest and actually nicest character in the book, but really because just her and June are the only characters in the whole book that actually, like, fought for anything. Seems like everyone else was just kinda, like, go with the flow. I’ll take drugs or whatever the case is instead of Mhmm. Really fighting for something.
And then when someone does fight for something for, like, Angus fighting for the academic I don’t know what that was. Academic, like, competition committee. Like, everyone, like, makes fun of them and says, like, oh, that’s that’s a waste of time. Like, what? Like, that’s that’s such a terrible mentality to have.
And, like, her and June would fight for people, and they didn’t even wanna go find Emmy either. They’re like, we could just give up. I was like, what what’s going on here? It annoyed me. So I appreciate both those characters actually fighting for something.
Yeah. I mean, Aunt June fought for everything, it seemed, and and she was invested. I agree with you that I liked Angus a bit more. I needed someone that wasn’t so holy, and Angus was a little bit selfish in the good way of, I’m gonna get out of this shithole. Like, I’m gonna go and I’m gonna go to a big city even though that’s uncomfortable for me.
I’m gonna get out of here and and try to advance myself, where I appreciate Ahn Joon, like, being in the weeds and deciding that this is her thing. But, like, we’re talking about with the how things just continue for generation to generation, it’s just crazy to me, and I and I think these people are all saints, But how someone can just devote their life to all that terribleness and and trying to make it better one person at a time, it just seems like such a daunting task. And I know it’s, like, altruistic, and they’re not necessarily looking for, like, personal fulfillment, but I just it would be so hard. I don’t know how people do it. I just I’m a I’m a I’m a simple man.
I would be, it would be tough. So, yeah, she is definitely a saint, but I appreciated Angus being like, I’m gonna get the fuck out of here. I’m gonna go I’m gonna go buy it. Came back. Angus came comes back.
Yeah. She she did come back, but she came back to, I think, leave again. Like, they said she was gonna go on to because she knows she I mean, and she did also she wanted to be, like, a school counselor or a counselor in general or whatever the case is. So did you have a I mean, maybe you didn’t have a favorite part of this book. I don’t I don’t know if you did.
I liked it when he finally moved in with Angus. You know, that was like the upswing of the, you know, the rags to riches feel good story part. Only lasted for, like, you know, 50 pages, but Totally blew his knee up. There’s a breather for 50 pages and then back to back to the regular routine. I think my favorite part was when he got robbed by the heroin addict slash, prostitute in the truck stop bathroom because then I really knew what I was into at that point.
Before, I was not sure. And then at that point, I was like, oh, okay. This Keith’s gonna hate this. Yeah. That’s pretty much happened to me.
And I got a visceral that was at one point I got a visceral response. I was like, I was pissed. I was like, fuck this bitch. I was angry that he felt bad about telling the the woman to go kill herself. I was like, no.
I would say way worse than that. I would actually kill her. Yeah. That that’s exactly right. What about loves?
I thought it was good writing. The way that I would describe this book is it’s like listening to Kendrick Lamar or Nas. Oh, yeah. I I get that I’m supposed to like it, and I get that people like it. But but I’m a simple man.
Give me a good beat. Give me a nice story. Just give me some acon? Yeah. Like, that’s that’s what I want.
Like, you can keep your good lyrics and good writing. It doesn’t do much for me. So Buddy, go back and listen to Illmatic. The album is insane. I mean, I like You Can Hate Me Now.
That’s a jam. Yeah. That’s on Illmatic. But that’s, like, a good beat song. Actually.
Yeah. It is by P Diddy, so that’s how you know it’s gonna be. Wait. What? What’s going on?
Yeah. That that that song is smooth as baby oil. That’s for sure. That’s the end. I think I love that this book, although terribly sad and emotional, it has some laughs in it.
You know? Initially, when demons Don’t know. You didn’t you didn’t think so? No. Oh.
Got it. I I don’t know. When demon’s young, you get some of the, like, the classic young kid not understanding about adult stuff type jokes. And then throughout, he has little quips or asides or observational humor that I thought was good. It was it brought some some lightness to it, but I I I think maybe you were so deep in the weeds, you you couldn’t appreciate it.
Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. It’s funny. Like, there there’s funny parts.
If or funny lines, maybe not, like, whole scenes that are funny necessarily. But him calling people out or calling people out in his head or the way he references people in his head, I thought were pretty funny. Okay. What else do you love? I like that he wore 88 as a tight end like Tony Gonzalez.
Yeah. Bet you did. And I thought it was like a Forrest Gump, but instead of the dumb guy being lucky, it’s a smart guy being unlucky. Okay. Yeah.
There you go. I thought the setting was pretty good. You know, small town Appalachia, it’s not something that we’re, like, super familiar with. You see it in movies and whatnot. I also thought they were in West Virginia the whole time, which So did I.
Okay. So did I. I’m not crazy. That’s why I was like I was like I’m like, you’re not that far away from the ocean if you’re in West Virginia. I was like, wait.
What the hell is this possible? But Well, there’s parts of Virginia that are on the ocean. You know? Yeah. Well, I’d once they said Virginia, I was like, oh, you must have been like, must be super inland.
Yeah. But Yeah. So I I didn’t really know that either until eventually they said Virginia. And it was like, well, she’s in Virginia too, but it’s so far away. I was like, oh, right.
Okay. Because I knew they were in there, but whatever. I just thought the the Wait. I guess West Virginia is not that close to the water either. No.
It’s not. I’ll I’ll I’ll hand up. I got it. Cut that. West Virginia is West of Virginia.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hence, north. I thought he didn’t see the water because it was further away.
Yeah. And there are parts of Virginia that are more west than West Virginia. So we’re back. Yes. Alright.
That’s true. That is true. And I also loved I loved all the characters. I mean, there’s lots of characters in this book, but they all play a part whether they be tropey or not. I knew more about these characters in this book and their motivations, which was mostly drugs, than anyone in fourth wing.
So at least I knew I like recommended this to fourth wing. I knew what these characters were and what motivated them Yeah. And I appreciated that. I don’t know agree with the motivation. K.
The motivation. You either wanna do drugs, you either doing drugs, you wanna diddle someone in your family. Like, what do you mean? This is it. Or you’re trying to save someone.
It’s simple. Better than lusting for dragon porn or whatever it was. What about hates? I’ve already talked about it. I just don’t get the point.
Or is it the Sarah McLaughlin song, but for twenty hours, what’s the goal? I think you can tell this story like The Wire does, and it gives me a much better understanding of why people are not able to climb out of this and why people end up doing drugs. That’s not how you felt about The Wire when it’s just we realize it’s all a big circle and nothing changes. Yeah. But that’s more like, I at least have my hate can be directed at the government.
This, I guess, is I guess, the you can hate the pharmaceuticals. But I already hated them, you know. I I guess I already hate the government, though. So I don’t know. And why are these a good story?
I mean, that’s what it it was. Why are you just had a it told a full round story? Yeah. That’s fair. The only eight I have down is there’s just there’s a lot of poor rural America tropes.
We’ve talked about it. But, you know, poor kid with addicted mom, shitty stepdad, terrible foster care, gets good at sports, but they don’t know, terrible injury, inevitable drug addiction. The writing was on the wall. Like, everything was was very clear. So it’s a Pulitzer Prize winner.
Like, this won the Pulitzer Prize in 2023, which I don’t know. I don’t know what those things mean. So, it seems like a big deal, but it and I don’t need twists and turns necessarily, but it just seemed like we talked about that everything we saw was gonna happen did happen and Yeah. And that was that. I I haven’t read or watched The Brutalist, but I imagine it’s exactly this, but for World War two where I could predict everything that’s gonna happen.
And it’s gonna be super depressing. It’s super long. I bet that’s what the brutal and brutal has won awards. Right? So you, like, write this type of book to be to win that award.
Right? Yeah. I honestly have no idea what the brutalist is. It’s that Adrian Brody you wanna know. Yeah.
I just wanna I just want he just wanted her best actor. But and I did wanna say too. We we haven’t brought up Dory a lot. He said that a lot of characters flushed out. I thought she was not I thought she was a fourth wing character.
She had great hair. That’s it? Yeah. I I’ll agree with you. He was like, her hair was so amazing.
So now I’m doing fentanyl fentanyl at the back of a car. I was like, what? Especially since you the whole half the first half of the book, you are shitting on your mom and anger at your mom for doing drugs. So, like, I don’t get why you would go from that to that really quickly. Yeah.
I kinda thought at that point, it would be she’s super hot. Oh my god. I can’t believe she’s going out with me. And then she pulls out the drugs and he’s like, hold on a second. I don’t know if this is what I wanna be doing right now.
Yeah. And instead, he went all in. And, yeah. I I don’t know. I I will agree with you there.
I didn’t I didn’t necessarily feel like Dory was super fleshed out. We got all my lingering questions out of the way. Like, is it okay to diddle your sister? The answer is yes according to this book. No.
No one no one was blood related people. Chill out. It was his foster sister. Chill out. What you learn is it’s you get more attracted to them if you think of them as your sister.
That’s the key. Did you have any cast? Did you wanna cast it? I don’t think there’s anything on the docket for this. You didn’t even wanna cast it.
I just wanted a young Michael Fassbender for for Demon. That’s all I wanted. Okay. I don’t know if we can transport him back in time, but okay. No.
No. We can. We used to do this on this podcast. Oh, yeah. That’s true.
Yeah. And I and I appreciated that. So I’m taking a young Michael Fassbender because Alright. Okay. It’s a tough spot to fill.
You know? He’s gotta be tall and red headed and good looking and could be an athlete, but also could be an artist, but definitely is a junkie. That’s Michael Fassbender if I’ve ever seen him. Alright. Well, I’m interested.
What did you rate it? How many out of four buddies, how many how many how many stars did you get this one? I gave it a one. Oh, wow. Yeah.
Wow. Would I recommend it to anyone? No. Oh, definitely not. Not with a one.
My god. That’s your that’s your worst rating this year. Yeah. Holy smokes. I like fourth book better than this book.
Yeah. Clearly. The whole point of reading is to escape this world. Why do I wanna read a book that just makes me feel 10 times worse about my day to day and this world? Why would I do that?
It just doesn’t make any sense. Yeah. I think there’s multiple chain trains of thought where it’s, like, some people read to escape, and I think we both enjoy that that aspect of it. But there’s also to get an emotional or, like, visceral reaction and to feel something. I gave it a 2.5.
Two point Okay. Which is fine. It’s above average. You know? 2.5 out of four.
Who would you recommend it to is my question? I think if a traditional book club, like the ones that we don’t wanna be, I think this would be Yeah. It’s a literal. Literal yes. That makes sense.
Perfect. I think this would be something where if I was in a traditional book club and they said, hey. We just finished Michelle Obama’s biography, and now we’re gonna read Becoming great book. I would be jazzed. I’d be like, this is great.
This is exactly. It it provides the conversation that those types of situations you wanna have over a couple glasses of Pinot Grigio. Yeah. You know? So those are the people like, my mom.
I would tell my mom to read. But for what we’re looking for, maybe not. Maybe not. My bad, Keith. I guess I I told you to read in one.
Alright? My bad. I mean, I probably would have picked this out just because it’s so popular and just listened to it, but I would have stopped it halfway through. Alright. Well, what do we got coming up next?
Next, I literally looked on Reddit for lighthearted fun books. Yeah. We didn’t. I’d actually seen this book recommended, Dungeon, Crawler Carl by Matt Deneman. I’ve seen this book tons of times recommended on on Reddit.
However, when you go to Goodreads, it, like, doesn’t have that many bookshelves. So it must be a very, very guy heavy book. That’s what my assumption is. It’s a lit arch PG, which I don’t know what that means. I don’t even know what that means.
I thought it was one of those when R. L. Stine stopped writing Goosebumps and instead started writing those books where it’s like a choose your own adventure book Oh, yeah. Yeah. You read it and then it’s it says, oh, if you wanna open the door, you know, go to page 62.
If you wanna leave the room, go to page 85. I thought that’s what it was. I still haven’t started it yet, but the cover is also so cartoonish that I I I honestly I have no idea what you could do with it. I was getting I was chasing the the last book with this book. I, like, would do a hit of an hour of the last one.
I was like, Jesus Christ. I need to need something positive in my life when I put this on. This is your pickleback shot. Like, the Yeah. Demon copperhead was a whiskey, and Yeah.
Whatever this book is is gonna be your shot of pickle juice, but but I’m excited to read it. And it’s, like, a thirteen hour book, so, should be fun. Alright, Keith. Well, hey. I appreciate you you slogging through demon copperhead for me.
That was, demon copperhead. And, Keith, I’ll catch you for the dungeon master Carl or whatever the case is. Dungeon crawler Carl. Dungeon crawler Carl. Yeah.
It’s a terrible name for a book. It’s not great. DCC. Carl. It’s hard to say.
Yeah. Alright. Alright. Bye now. Bye now.
