Lord of the Flies – William Golding – Episode 30

The Buddies grab their conches, and blow through the Lord of the Flies by William Golding. The classic high school novel had the Buddies discussing common literary themes, such as: Prison tactics, Smokey the bear, the meaning of ‘taking short’ and much, much more. Pick up a spear, spread some blood on your face, and join the anarchy that is the Buddy Book Club.

Intro: (0:00-1:33) 
Stock Up/Down (1:34-23:15)
Favorite Character/Scene (23:16-31:13)
Love/Hate (31:14-39:12)
Reader Email (39:13-45:34)
Casting the Movie (45:35-50:05)
Literary Questions (50:06-53:18)
Conclusion (52:30-55:28)

Next Book: MISTBORN: THE WELL OF ASCENSION (Book 2) by: BRANDON SANDERSON

Transcript for SEO purposes 🙂

All right. Welcome, Buddy Book Club. I’m Dylan, here with Chief of Savages. Keith what’s up, buddy? Savage by name, Savage by reputation. Oh, good God. We’re breaking down the best sellers. And this week we’ll discussing Lord of the Flies by William Golding. It was our 30th episode, by the way. Keith oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. That’s pretty impressive. I like breaking things up in tens just like everyone else. Are we halfway through the year? So essentially we’re on pace for 40, right? Yeah, exactly. We’re above pace. We’re setting the pace. We’re like the Ethiopian runners, the Boston Marathon. If you like to recommend a book for us to read or reach out to us about any past episodes, you can visit our website by bookup.com or slide to our DMs on Twitter or Instagram Body Book Up podcast you can list on itunes and spotify. So please download and subscribe. Keith we’re going back into literary shit. I like it. I know you were kind of hesitant, especially when I start there on literary terms. Yeah. Once you start saying motifs, I’m like, is that like a bow tie or what is that? I actually have no idea what a motif is. Perfect. Next two of us in the country. So Lord of the Flies is your classic. Deserted island. Boys get stranded there, except it’s not, because it’s all about deeper meetings. But we’re going to get into that later for a libation. The kids seem to not even need booze to get all wackadoo. So unless you have some pig blood on the side, I’d suggest having a beverage of your choice. It’s the summer, maybe mojito. We’re going to go right into stock up, stock down. So, Keith, let’s get into it with your stock ups. Keith, what do you have for stock up? For loading stock up? Prison tactics like Oz. I haven’t seen Oz, but I assume there’s a lot of this. We’re first introduced to Piggy and Ralph, and Piggy makes this big mistake here. I know where you’re going. First thing he does is you don’t show your Insecurities, right? That’s the first thing in prison. You just don’t do that. Immediately he starts telling his life story. Here’s my list of fears. Here’s my maladies. Here’s everything that’s wrong with me. I’m like, what the hell is this Piggy get doing? And then he’s like, you can call me whatever you want, just don’t call me Piggy. Right? Then Ralph immediately starts laughing and calls them Piggy. There’s only two options from here. Once that happens, you either punch Ralph in the face right in the mouth and just say, do it again. Right? That’s the one option. Or you leave the island and don’t ever talk to Ralph again. Those are the only two things you can do. You can’t tell everyone all this stuff and then look right in the face and say, I’m going to call you bigger regardless, and then have any self respect right. But in this allegory, you can’t just leave the island, just like you can’t leave prison. Well, that’s why prisons tactics are stock up. I always thought they’re kind of a little bit overstated. You got to punch the biggest guy in the mouth. But that would have changed the whole book had he just punched Ralph in the mouth. Also, Peggy’s asthma was just fake, right? He was faking that, right? That wasn’t real. He was just like a husky boy. Yeah. He was like, yeah, I have asthma. And they never had any asthma attacks. He never had any issues with it. I’m like, is that how that works? I don’t think well, he would have you breathe. He’d have some heavy breathing moments. But he did use it smartly. It’d be like, hey, piggy, why don’t you get firewood? He’s like, My asthma. Piggy, why don’t you do this? My asthma. All right. That’s true. Yeah, that’s true. And he’s like, my aunt like, all right. Not your aunt, Peggy. Jesus. He loves it. Also, he must have a traumatic so this book was written in the 50s. He lives with his aunt. Are we assuming this is like some postworld War II vibe? I guess that’s what we’re going for, right? The beginning. They don’t really give you any backstory, but apparently he initially wrote a long first section that was about a nuclear, post apocalyptic World War II event where they’re flying away from whatever is going on. And that’s why yeah, so basically that’s how we started it. But they don’t really cover that at all. But that’s essentially what it was supposed to be. And then the editors were like, nah, that doesn’t check out. And he’s like, oh, you got some notes on someone. And they’re like, this book is terrible. It’s super dull and pointless. And then he was like, all right, I guess I’ll change this. It’s hilarious that a book like this, which has become obviously a literary classic, just got so many notes, I imagine what it was supposed to be. And it really goes to show why Larry David was so good because he just said, no notes. I’m not going to listen to your notes. You can provide notes if you want, but it’s going to be useless for you because we’re just going to keep going with seinfeld and then curve and whatever else. Yeah, I kind of like prison. I can dig prison tactics. Yeah, he ended up getting killed. Spoilers. Sorry. Spoilers. But because he didn’t follow prison tactics, that’s fact the matter. That’s it. Yeah. Well, even sometimes when you follow prison tactics, you still get killed. That’s kind of the way it goes. Like, you punch the biggest guy in the mouth and then he stabs you in the face. Fair. My first stock up is Smokey the Bear. He’s been quiet of late. I feel like when we were kids, there’s a big smoky vibe going on Sunday, Saturday, morning cartoons. Big smoky vibe. There’s at least one ad for only you can prevent foreign fires. And these kids probably grew up without smokey. And it shows because had these kids been schooled by smokey, they wouldn’t have lit half the forest on fire and killed the one kid with the birthmark on his face. And then they just never talked about it anymore. But boys will be boys, perhaps. And they decided to let the entire force on fire. They had no idea about cleaning some space between your fire and the wood pile? No, they just went for it. Laid half the island. See you later, kid with the smudge on his face forgotten. That was just Drew Breeze, right? Who’s Drew? Drew Breeze. He’s see the Oprah thing where she’s like, Hey. And just tries to wipe it off his face. No. Yeah. You’ve never seen that? No. Look that up. I thought it was a joke at first, but she’s dead serious. She’s like, It looks like you have something on your face. And she goes to wipe off his birthmark, and he’s like, how do you respond to that? Yeah. How do you respond? Well, there’s one way you made me completely lose my transition. Sorry. Forest fires. When the captain of the ship or whatever at the end comes on, and they’re like he’s like, Oh, you guys playing out here? Hopefully no one killed. And he’s like, Two. I’m like, Whatever happened to the guy with the freaking birthmark? They just forgot about him. Like, you guys killed him, too? Homicides. That was more of a second degree murder. Third degree. Yeah, I guess so. But fair enough. But either way, spoke of the bear. If these kids had a little bit of him in their life, I mean, they obviously had some Boy Scouts or something because they used the glasses. They were smart enough to use the glasses to let the fire so big mistake. That’s what I got for Stock up. What do you got, Franklin D. Roosevelt? Stock up, Leo. So everyone’s on the island, and they’re all convinced of this beast, right? That’s on the island that they’re all scared of, that it’s in the night, all this stuff. Everyone is so scared, and Ralph’s trying to give them an inspiring speech to be like, no, it’s not real, and try to inspire all this hope and the young ins and everyone else there. All you had to do is take a little line from my boyfriendny D, and just say, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. And that would have ended it. But he couldn’t say that. He was trying to say that the whole time. He just knew a little history. I knew Frankie D. Yeah. That’s the only thing we needed from that speech. But he couldn’t figure it out because fear has a lot to do with this. Right? That’s got to be one of the big themes here. Is how fear just motifs. US, for sure. I’m going to have to Google what a motif is because I just don’t know. But yeah, the fears really what drove them. They just had your boy. He wasn’t even scared of polio. What did he do exactly? I’m not sure. I just looked up because I knew that quote, but I didn’t really know anything about it. Did he have polio? I think that’s what he had, right? That’s why he was in a wheelchair. God, we’re terrible people. Yeah, this isn’t good. Well, if anything, he led the US through most of World War II. So that’s the thing. My other stock up is the other white meat, aka pork. I thought it was baby sat. Bastard. Come on. Yeah, I got you. I got picked up where you’re putting down? But I mean, talk about a bloodlust. These guys will do anything for some pork. It’s crazy. I haven’t seen anything like this since last time I was in Hawaii. And everyone was like, I got to go to a luau because there’s pork in the ground. I was like, okay, sounds good to me. I’ll go to pork if it’s in the ground. Pork, whatever. But these guys are literally deciding not to try to get rescued, and instead we’ll go hunt for pork. Yes, I know there’s deeper meanings to all of this stuff. We’re talking top level right now, but I didn’t know what the deeper meanings are. I think so, because the whole idea of hunting was just we’re going to show our strength, our masculinity. That five is we’re hunters just because it shows it’s almost. The guy who’s, like, the most scared is usually the one who’s pretending to be the toughest kind of thing. Yeah, prison tactics. Yeah. There you go. Maybe the big white supremacist in jail is crying and holding it, sucking his thumb at night. The pork is delicious, there’s no question. And I’m with them to some degree. These guys are climbing up trees, eating shitty, rotten fruit all day, having the runs, and they get a shot at some good meat. Although they just kind of like, kill the pork. They got salted water. Boil some of that down, salt that pork, cut it up into different strips, get some belly for going for bacon in the morning, mix it up. They just kind of go for it. Obviously, they’re children, so they can’t really get that vibe. But either way, pork is what keeps us going. I wouldn’t be surprised if big Pork was actually behind the marketing of this entire novel. That’s fair. That’s a fair point. Where do they get the salt from, by the way? The ocean, bro. Have you ever heard of it? How do you do that? You boil down the water and then the raining salt. Yeah, they literally lit an entire forest on fire. They could have just put a pot of water or a couple of coconuts of water. They’d never pot. I guess they go to coconuts of water and just gone after it. They could have figured it out. Come on. They figured out how to murder each other. They could figure out yeah, that’s true. Whatever. Just dip the pork in some salty water. Let it dry. That’s fair. My last stock up is Nerds and Cowboys. I recommended this to you, but I listened to the Shane Gillis and Louis CK. Presidents podcast, which tied back to Frankie D. Roosevelt there. And it was super informative. I don’t know if you actually gave it a listen, but I recommend it for anyone that’s kind of into history and the presidents and wants to get, like a funny rundown of them. They actually give a pretty good story telling of what each president is known for. And did you listen to all 45 episodes or however many presidents there are? There’s four episodes. So it spans probably over six or 7 hours maybe. And they’ll just, like, skip people. And I’m like, this guy didn’t do anything. But then they’ll be like, all right, frankly, Roosevelt, this is like, what he’s known for? It would be like funny stories about them. So like, William McKinley fuck them. Next. Yeah, exactly. Like Taft so far, stuck in the bathtub. Next. This guy is known for getting a shot at or something. Or like, this guy went outside and was the present that I want to show. Tough he was. And during his address, he just didn’t wear any long sleeves or anything. Like freezing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, maybe that was McKinley, like, the shortest president. But anyways, I think Louis C. K brings up is that the presidents are basically broken into nerds and cowboys, where the nerds come in, they actually make changes that are important, but they’re not really well liked. They usually are not popular in any way because they’re just making stuff that people don’t like. And then the cowboys come in like Teddy Roosevelt. Everyone loves them. They’re these big characters, but they kind of fuck everything up. And then people then again vote for a nerd, and then they vote again for a cowboy. It just goes keep going back and forth. And that’s like, how the country is set up. But that’s basically what Piggy and Ralph were. And Jack, they’re like, kind of piggy is like kind of the level actually making some good ideas. And then the other people are just cowboys and people are, like, going with the purpose. And it’s more popular. So it’s kind of interesting, the leadership standpoint, how that kind of reflected in this as well. No, that’s 100% that’s actually really interesting because Ralph’s a total nerd, even though he really is, like a badass at heart. When they first go to get the beast or whatever, he’s like, all right, I’ll go. I’ll go alone. No big deal. Then he’s like, okay, these people come with me. But he was ready to go alone, which, like, even Jack wouldn’t do. But Ralph’s a pragmatist. He’s looking to keep the fire going. He’s like, that’s the only way we’re going to get off his island. And Jack and his crew are just like, no, man, it’s all about hunting. It’s like, well, what’s that going to get you? Like, you’re just going to kill some pigs and you’re going to eat and then what? What do we do after that? So I feel like there’s definitely an allegory for that nerds cowboy vibe. And also the fire kind of being like the shit that we have to do every day. Neither of us are necessarily, like, blown out of the water in our day jobs, but it’s just like, hey, that’s what we got to do to survive. We all got to hustle. And nowadays, everyone hustles for the man. I mean, we all wish we could be home studying in Alaska, but the fire is also hustling for the man so that we can then get rescued, aka salvation. I mean, I’m not a big Jesus freak, and by big, I mean zero, but I think that’s the idea. Hey, if you just stick to getting up in the morning, taking care of your own personal fire at the end of the day, have a piece of fruit, go to sleep, you know, where they’re shitting in places they weren’t supposed to shit. That’s you and your job, Keith. Yeah. That is a motif. That’s your life shitting and distracting and being terrible for everyone else around you. I’m Ralph In. This some other person’s, Jack, and you’re a little in. You’re just shitting in the water. And we’re trying to figure out, like, running around naked, and we’re like, bro, chill out. Making sandcastles all day that are just going to get washed away. Let’s jump into stockdown. Having a terrible nickname. So if you have a terrible nickname, and I know a few friends with terrible nicknames, can you provide examples, please? So I have a good friend who’s actually coming to visit me this weekend. His name is Cheese. He has always been Cheese. In my mind, when I introduce him to people, I introduce him as Cheese. I’ve never called him by his Christian name. Maybe if I was talking to an adult or something like that, like a real adult, not whatever we are, but someone’s father or something like that. I don’t think that she’s a bad nickname, though. Well, that’s not the only one. There’s also pubes. That’s not great. That’s bad. And that person’s last name is Huber. It’s just hubre. It just happens. And the biggest mistake you can make if you get a new lease on life, if you’re on a desert island, if you go to college, that’s your high school nickname. You go to college, the biggest mistake you can make is saying what your nickname was. Because then obviously that’s going to happen. So here’s the thing. People just don’t go around telling people what the nickname you hated was. It’s really that simple. Although Ralph does make a good point when he’s like, hey, they were going to call you Fatty, so would you rather be Fatty or would you rather be Picky? Fatty, I think. Yeah. Granted, at the end of the day, they’re now equating piggy with pig, which is something that they slaughter. So they’re like, hey, this guy’s now just a piece of meat that we can do whatever we want with. Which they do, although they don’t eat them or shove a stick up his butt like they did with the pig. But leave your nicknames at home. And also, don’t be the guy. And I did have this friend in college who tried to create his own nickname. Don’t be that guy either. That’s the worst. Just let them come to you. Mine was British sports Stockdown. So during the book, there’s a lot of times where there’s kids throwing rocks or throwing spears and doing stuff, and they’re like, overall, just not very good at it. And I realize it’s because British sports, there’s no harping on throwing. Right? You think of America, you think football, american football, you think baseball. Neither of those sports are even played really in Britain, right? What sports do they play that actually involved throwing? Using that motion? Cricket, maybe. But I don’t think crickets is that popular there. Right. I think that’s like an Indian like Australia sport more. Yeah, but where do you think the Australians and the Indian people got it from? I mean, we’re originated from British colonies too, kids. We revolted in a way that’s different than going out to the ocean and collecting sea. Yeah, we started drinking coffee and fucking playing football and baseball. Like men. That’s women here. That’s what we did. I’m trying to think about other stuff. We got hurling, but that’s like a Scottish thing, right? But that has a stick, too, but isn’t like the javelin and those things aren’t they big with that? I mean, I’m basing this off. Zero researchers never been to Britain. Just say, yeah, you’re right. They don’t play football or baseball like real men over here in America. And they say, you’re right. Soft down. Yeah, you know what? You’re right. You’re right down. Those British pansies don’t do anything. They don’t even sport. They play long sport. Yeah, exactly. They’re too busy on their horses playing polo, kid. That’s the problem. Or croquet. Yeah, croquet is a great game, by the way. Big fan. It’s one of those games you like more because you don’t play very often. That’s all it is. Fair enough. My next step down is the idea of grown ups knowing things. So from Piggy r IP, grown ups know things. They aren’t afraid of the dark. They’d meet, have tea and discuss, and then things would be all right. No, they wouldn’t be all right. You’re wrong. Piggy the one thing I’ve learned as I’ve grown up is that grown ups are just as dumb as everyone else. I just said how I went to the US open yesterday for practice round. Humble brag, I guess, but not really. And you should see these people out there. They are fucking children, just screaming, oh, my God. Phil mickelson. Phil, we love you. I’m like, who are you? I’m turning around and it’s like a 50 year old man at 10:00, a.m. He’s double fist. I’m like, what is happening here? It just shows when you just give people that crowd effect. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a kid, whether you’re an adult, but they don’t know shit. And also, adults are afraid of the dark. I’m afraid of the dark sometimes. I’m not afraid to admit it. I’m in my house, some creaky shit goes down, all the windows and doors are open. I’m like, Maybe I should close the doors. That doesn’t sound so good. And I think this was an important quote, I think, from the book, because it shows this idea, as well as later in the book when they get picked up by the sailors and whatnot, it shows this idea that, okay, adults are different, but the whole story is about the kids on the island. But it’s really just about what happens when kind of society breaks down and you start from a new and whether people’s emotions and lead them to a sense of morality or if you as a human being are actually just a terrible person at heart. That’s kind of the way it goes. And this idea that the adults know what’s going on. Like, whoa, we all live in the same world. Adults obviously don’t know what’s going on because granted, we have this wonderful technology and stuff, but we’re going around removing abortion and crazy shit like that because people are wild. And then even with this guy at the end, the sailor of the boat, they say, oh, he picks them up, he saves them, but then they’re going on like they’re in a battleship. Like they’re going on to fight some other fucking people. They’re just hunters themselves. They’re savages themselves. These sailors who are in their white clothes, bright white clothes, look beautiful, like, no, they’re just going to fuck up some other shit, fuck up the world. We’re all just doing the same thing. That’s a great point. Yeah. I will push back on the adult 50 year old double fisting Bud Lights. I mean, that’s just enthusiasm and being excited about something. Will we take that away from people, that’s childlike? Because it’s great. I don’t think we should ever take that away. Dame I don’t know. I don’t like the criticism there. Okay, that’s fair. To be honest, I should have thrown in that he was chugging a couple Bud Lights. Maybe it’s his day off. I mean, if you’re going to somewhere and you’re excited about something and you’re rooting for someone. There’s nothing bad about that. I mean, I can see how it’s not real life, but that’s the whole point of going to that, right? It’d be a little different. If you’re doing that at a political rally, then you’re fucking weirdo in my opinion. Yes. I guess there’s, like, worse things to be super jazzed about. And I’m also just a cynic at heart. So it’s just so weird to me, truthfully, that people get so excited. If someone makes a golf shot, I’ll clap. You like a nice job. But I’m not, like, screaming at him like, Phil, you got all that money. How’s it going? Who should I bet on this weekend? It’s like a weird thing to be, like, trying to get a rise from the rest of the crowd. I don’t know exactly what you’re doing. Wasn’t Phil Mickelson in our previous episode? One of the four people are three people you’d want to go out to the bars with or whatever we had. Oh, yeah. Maybe because he’s gambling. He’s a serious gambler. Well, if I was sitting next to him, I’d have a good time, don’t get me wrong. But I just wouldn’t scream at him.

 

Participant #1:

All right, favorite scene, favorite character. What do you got? Yeah, so for favorite character, I went, Simon. I just really didn’t like anyone else in the book. And he realizes how crazy everyone is, and he’s kind of like, you know what? I’m just going to go off my own and just hang out. And then he starts talking to a dead pilot with flies on him and calling the lore the flies and has his own conversations and stuff with him. No, he was talking to the pigs head. Oh, is it a pig’s head? Yeah, whatever. I couldn’t figure out what was going on. That’s like a big scene. Okay, well, I just like that he kind of won just talks to himself out there and makes things up. And he’s just off on his own. And then he’s kind of trying to save everyone, and he runs down and then just gets killed. Yeah, that was a big mistake by him. And I was looking up just like reading the summaries and stuff like that. And people are like, oh, yeah, simon says, be Jesus. And I was like, wait, what? Defending the little ones and piggy represents good and kind of not speaking too much, even though Jesus did speak a lot. So I don’t get that. But then he gets killed for his beliefs or something. I don’t know. I couldn’t really figure it out. And he gets stabbed like a spear, just like Jesus. Yeah. So I was like, all right, I guess. But anyway, that’s excellent. We’re trying to recreate a society here. Whatever was going on, I definitely saw Simon as like a priest class. If you’re in your clash of clans or whatever you’re playing over there, do they have those, like a wizard class or something. Dota well, kids, there are three different classes. There’s strength, agility, and intelligence. You got to know that. And then within those, there’s a different kind of categories. Within the sub categories, of course. Yeah. He was almost like a shaman. He would talk to himself. He’d have these mystical conversations. And the conversation with the pig’s head, I think, was I forget the exact quotes, but he’s basically saying pig saying, like, oh, am I the Beast? You think I’m the Beast? You think you can kill me? Or whatever. Basically what I got from that was that the Beast is really a figment of their imagination. They are the Beast. No, that’s something like that. I said, Is it us? Or something like that. I don’t know. It was funny. When I was reading this, I was like, Oh, man. I imagine if I went back in high school and had the ability I have now, and I read this and I was like, Oh, no, I would still fucking get these glass. I’m like, No, I’m still dumb. Why do I think I’m possibly smarter than I was then? What am I doing? Oh, God. The Internet changed things for us because when do we read this in school? Isn’t it like high school, 6th grade, or high school? Yes, I think it was high school. I feel like it’s pretty strong. There’s some legit shit. Yeah. For it to be a middle school book, that would be it’s heavy. But it is definitely full of symbolism and the ideas that this is a societal allegory or something like that. Just the idea that this is a microcosm of what would happen in society. But Simon talking to himself. Simon going to his secret place to just be alone was very meditative and prayer and stuff. So, yeah, I did it. I was a big Simon fan, for sure. It has to be him. I’m with you. I’m with you there. Unfortunately, he made the big mistake of seeing a bunch of guys going crazy around a fire and be like, oh, this is the time I should jump out of the bush and start screaming. So that was a big mistake. Piggy, though, has a little maybe an honorable mention just because he was the only one in touch with his feelings. I mean, I can see my girlfriend saying that this guy must be a PISCES or something like that. Oh, Wednesday’s birthday. Because all the other guys at the beginning, they can’t accept their own fear, and so they belittle Piggy for expressing it. Classic guys being guys move. Piggy is the first person to just be like, yeah, this is a little scary out here. Oh, Piggy, you’re supposed to it’s kind of a whiny little bitch, though. I agree. That’s why it’s not my favorite. I’m like, all right, Peggy, come on, buddy, you’re killing me. And you brought up earlier, you just be like, No, I don’t really want to help build the houses. It’s like, that would bother me. That part would bother me. It’s like it was my idea. So you guys just do it yourself. Like Jesus. Yeah, but I get the frustration by Ralph and Piggy. And even Ralph got super frustrated in the book because they didn’t see it. Hey, we need a fire to live, and we’re just going to play on the beach, kick over sandcastles and hunt. He’s like, well, then we’re just going to be here forever. Like, do you guys never want to touch your first boob? I don’t understand. That’s what Piggy was there for.

 

Participant #1:

Piggy. Yeah. So I appreciate a little bit of Piggy for that. And obviously another honorable wrench for Ralph is a good guy and maybe some Jack Love coming. We’ll see. Did you like any scenes or anything from this one? I did really like the last scene where you running through the forest while it’s on fire. That would be kind of cool to see. Also a little spin zone there. But Jack saved them all right? That’s why Jack loves coffin. I bought Jack. I’m like, yeah, it was my idea to light the whole forest on fire. I’ve been saying, we need a fire this whole time. No one’s been listening to me. And then Ralph would be like, no, but I was when he’s like, yeah, Ralph, you wanted a pussy fire. I wanted a huge fire, which is big. Yes. Ralph’s like, oh, it’s not a fire on top of the mountain? He’s like, no. Jack’s like, no, let’s like, the mountain on fire. Don’t you get it? Yeah, it is funny and ironic and hilarious. All that stuff that at the end of the day, the fire that Jack started was the fire that got the guy comes off the boat. Yeah. You guys had a huge fire out here. How could we miss it? Who did that? Who did that? Yes. They get back home jackets, like knighted by the queen or something like that. Okay. I agree. The last scene I thought was really fun just in terms of like, okay. I knew the book was ending, especially when you’re page turning. I also love those parts when you actually have a physical book and you’re like, page turning, there’s only two pages left. Like, what the fuck’s going to happen here? I actually remember the ending from high school. Well, I had almost, like a high school feeling before we started talking because I finished the book this morning while I was taking short. Love it. Love it. And I finished it this morning and then was like, oh, my God, my brain is so cluster fucked. Like, I understand some of this stuff, but I don’t really have time to think about it. So I did what every good high school student does, and I watched the movie on HBO right while I was working. Wow. Which helped. Yeah. And then we’re here. And I started recording, and I’m like, oh, my God, I’m not ready for this. I’m not ready. As soon as came back, it’s wild. It’s a wild, wild feeling. I like the end, too, because it’s like them hunting broth, which is wild. And you think about the whole island burning around him and him just kind of like bob and weaving left and right. Do I go on a tree? Do I go in the bush? Do I charge them whatever I dug? It also just Piggy dying scene was probably because I couldn’t really picture it in my head. So it falls off a 40 foot cliff. They kind of brushed it off in the book. And then Piggy got hit by a rock and he died, but the conch broke. I’m like, Wait, what? The conch is gone now? Which is most important? Well, I think it’s the idea that the cons is somewhat a symbol for society coming together in a good way. It brings people together. They listen, they sit, they’re quiet, they pass the concrete when they need to talk, these rules that we give ourselves. And then instead, when it breaks, it’s like, yeah, we’re succumbing to anarchy. But I did like the line when Piggy died, it was like red stuff flew out of his mouth or something like that. It’s like, whoa. What? Yikes. What do we love about Lord of the Flies? What did you love? A couple of British slang terms. I really liked the term on account of probably heard this a bunch, but Norm McDonald says this all the time. Oh, I can’t build those houses with an account of my asthma. Is that a British thing? I don’t know if it’s a British thing, but Norman Dawn says that all the time, which I think is funny. But also I just like the term, just like, oh, yeah. I’m not driving there on the account of the fact that I’m drinking 20 beers today. I’m going to start using it. Right. Okay. So we’re going to use it specifically for that purpose. I got it. Just like, throw that in there on account because I think it’s just a funny way of speaking. It’s just kind of reverses the order of your words. Yeah, it’s like, Keith, you’re going to leave your car here after the softball game. Your house is 30 miles away. It’s like, yeah, I’m going to walk on account of the fact that I just had 30. There we go. That’s a better way to see. That was much better. Damn it. I also like specs for sunglasses. I don’t wear glasses. Oh, must be nice. Well, you can’t light a fire on a beach with my specs. I can. I got some specs shaded specs. Yeah, I like specs to give me my specs that you didn’t include taking short. How does that go? What the phrase taken short to suddenly and unexpectedly need to use the bathroom, especially when it’s inconvenient. Okay? I probably did not understand that. They were like, Yeah, he needs to take a shit. And I was like, Why is everyone laughing about it? Who cares? No, they said, you just take short. So that’s why I was confused about it. I was like, Wait, what? And then I looked it up. I was like, Oh, that’s actually a thing. So I might use that. It’s like to take short or to fuck. What was the other thing? To need short or something like that. But I’d be like, we’re on a long car ride. It’s like, you got to pull over quick on, because I’m about to take short here. All right? I’ve been taken short to suddenly and unexpectedly need to use the bathroom. Or as the Brits would say, the loo. Yeah, that was actually one of my love. So I’m glad we naturally progressed into that. I also love a good deserted island setting. I mean, it just works. I don’t know why it works. Maybe it’s just because nothing else matters. Everything else is secondary when it comes to desert islands. I also love Survivor, the TV show What’s Up, Jeff Probes. I hope you’re listening, but whether it be Castaway Robinson, Caruso, Swiss Family Robinson, all those old Lost there you go. I feel like Lost. They took a lot of Lord of the Flies into Lost because there is so much idea of good and evil and what happens when people are just kind of left to their own devices on an island. So I was a big fan of that. I love a good deserted island. If someone says, Hey, there’s a movie coming out. I’m like, Yeah, what’s it called? They’re like, It’s called Deserted Island. I’d be like, down. I’ll watch it. Shitty movie. Sunday perfect. I actually thought, too, I thought this book would make a great play because I thought the dialogue parts were pretty legit. Like, the other parts are kind of zoned out for my whole eye. Whenever there was, like, an argument or some sort of leadership chaos going, I was kind of locked in. But then they’d be, like, describing the island. I was like, all right, I’m kind of out of this for a little bit now, for sure. I’m kind of surprised that it’s like Guys and Dolls. And I was gonna say Mickey Blue Eyes, but it’s not. That what they do. Whatever. The point is that I feel like Lord of the Fly should be on the local play thing. They should do that be great. I mean, the set pieces are probably pretty easy. Go wild, do your thing. One last thing. For love, it was just wearing masks makes you like, a new person. They were, like, painted their face, and they could just do whatever the fuck they wanted. I was like, I love that. Kind of like Halloween. You just kind of become a different person. I just like the idea of that. So you’re a big fan of Eyes Wide Shot featuring Top Cruising? Yeah. Or when I wear a mask for COVID, I just can do whatever I want. I’m sort of robbing banks and shit. It’s a different person. It’s not me, so it’s fine. That’s interesting you say that. I wonder if during covet, like thefts and robberies, like petty larceny, stuff like that went up because people felt they were disguised behind their masker. Because the whole thing with the mask in the book is that’s when Jack really turns is when he starts painting his face. Because he’s not even Jack anymore. And even Ralph says that with like it might even be Jack or one of the other guys. He’s like, that’s not Roger anymore. Like, that’s someone else. Because once they paint their face, they’re not them. What did you hate about it, though? Tell me what you hated. British Navy. Well, hold on. You’re talking about a historic navy. Like, they had the biggest navy in the world for a millennia. What happened? Kids. They have zero idea where these kids are. The planes crashed. They’re not looking for them. It seems like there’s no search parties at all. Then they have a fighter pilot that dies on the island. They’re not looking for him either. He evacuated from his plane. You know, he got parachuted out. So they’re not looking for these people at all, it seems like. And then they get to the island. These kids have been surviving for six months, it seems like at this point. It was tough to have a timeline. Yeah, it seemed like it was pretty long. They’re all tattered up and basically shit goes sideways. And they get there and he’s like, why are you guys acting so rambunctious? It’s like, what the fuck, buddy? How about here’s some food? I can’t believe you guys are alive. We’re so excited to see you. He’s like, oh, you fucking little kids acting like kids. And now it’s like, what? Yeah. So you guys play? Enough. No, we’re dying. We are literally dying. Why are you dressed so poorly? It’s like, buddy, we’ve been on an island stranded for six months. Yeah, they’re terrible. It was terrible. He didn’t offer anything. And then at one point, he’s like, they’re all crying. And he’s like, I’m going to turn away and let them cry. That’s how the book ends. I was like, what? You should be a suit yourself. Give that child a hug, for fuck’s sake. He didn’t want to get his wife dirty. His white suit, he might have taken short in it. The only thing I hated, really, was Jack Meredith, outside of the fact that he saved everybody. Basically, it started from the beginning. He said he should be chief because he can sing in C sharp. That was his mentality. Here’s why I should be cheap because I can sing in C sharp, which is not very high of a note. Right? I agree. And they’re making fun of Piggy. They’re making fun of piggy. And this guy just said he should be cheap because he can sing in C sharp. Someone give this Jack Meredith fella? Noogie, because what are you talking about? That’s a British sport over there. Like I’m saying, it goes back to the British sports hates choir. Yeah, that’s a prestigious thing position. He’s not a nerd. There terrible. He’s like, I’m Head Boy, and I can sing in C sharp. It’s like, screw a set of balls, bro. Move on. Get out of here. Do you have any other hates? The flip side of taking chart in account of that, he uses sneak all the time instead of snuck, which I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the Conan clip where Conan and Jennifer Gardner conan is interviewing Jennifer Garner. Have you seen this clip before? No, I haven’t. Just quickly run it down. He’s like, yeah. So then I snuck into the house, and then Jennifer Gardner corrects him. He says, No, Conan, snuck isn’t a word. It’s sneak. I thought you went to Harvard. And he’s just, like, looking at the camera, like, distraught, oh, my God, I’m so wrong. And he’s like, well, I actually went to Harvard driving School, not the college. Got him. But then he brings out a dictionary and shows her that’s actually a word, and everyone in the crowd is like, oh, shit. Got them. But anyway, right? So the past turns sneak. Sneak is sneak. I snuck in somewhere, but he would write it as the kids sneaked into the bushes. And he said it all the time. And I kept on being like, what the hell is this? Sneak work? So it just brought you back? Yeah. Every time I heard it, I still thought that clip of Jenner Garner. Correct again. You have to look that up. It’s pretty funny. Let’s jump into some listener mail. You’ve got mail. It’s from Gonzalez. From a city in Brazil. That’s interesting, considering we do not have many South American listeners. But thank you. I appreciate that. Gonzalez, extra large German population there. We deal with other German listeners. Oh, yikes. But we know why they’re there. We know why are humans inherently good or inherently evil? It’s as simple as that. And I think what his point is that the books got a lot of deepness to it. So I’m not drunk. I’m just dumb, God damn it. Our humans inherently good or inherently evil? Because I think that’s the point, right? That’s kind of like the main point of this whole thing. Golden even said the theme of the book is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. So if the society is good, it’s probably because the people are acting morally and doing the right thing. If the society is bad, probably the other way. You can draw that to our own society as you like, but what do you think? Obviously we are not philosophyrs, but I will philosophize on my own podcast, thank you very much. So I want you to take first, are we good or we’re evil? I think it depends. I think the quote from Good Omens. So we had society’s two meals and 24 hours away from barbarism, but realistically, we’re all fucking monkeys, right? We’re born with a survival of the fittest mindset. Are you really evil if you’re killing someone to eat that last banana? Maybe not. It comes to yourself before others, right? Is that kind of when it comes down to I’m just trying to break it down to a different way to make it kind of more digestible. And I think Good would technically be like you’re willing to sacrifice yourself for others. If you are on this island and you had a candy bar, would you pocket it and eat a little bit of it every day or would you share it with other people? Yeah, I think when forced to, every single person is selfish and looks up for themselves. They’re evil. If they’re forced to the situation, then everyone’s evil, I think. Yeah, and I think golden. I mean, that’s what he was going for, right? The idea that when it comes down to it, obviously there are some good characters who are trying to do good things, but they’re pretty much basing it on their past experiences, not necessarily like their heart, perhaps. I agree. I’m on the same page. I really think that and we love Dystopian shit, and I think about it a lot and I think I’m a good person, but I think if it all broke down, I’d probably do horrible things to make myself survive. Like what longer? I don’t know, steal people’s food? The basic reasons. Wow. I didn’t realize it was that. I don’t think I would do, like, horrible things. Just saying I’m the strongest and I can do whatever the fuck I want. Just to say on this podcast, you’ve mentioned at least twice that you would eat humans. So you wouldn’t do that or you would? Well, I would definitely. I mean, that’s not that horrible if they were dead already or if I was really hungry. Yeah, but I wouldn’t like murder to murder, but I would survive. Okay. Yeah, I guess that’s the question, is that either or not? I don’t know. I personally think the only thing that holds us really together is this, like, agreed upon morality. And that’s pretty much why in my mind, that’s like why religions were formed, so we can have a base of morality that we can all agree upon. That’s how a society can function. That’s why religion is a big thing, is because then people say, oh, okay, if we pray to the rain gods, then we’ll get rain. As opposed to just being like, no, let’s just murder everyone and take everything, whatever’s left. Yeah, I think that kind of sums it up. Gonzalez I don’t know. Send us an email. Let us know what you think. It’s tough. Obviously, lots of people of smart people, not dumb people like us, have argued over this is why hypotheticals are great. It’s like, if you were put in this situation, would you do this? And that’s why I think yeah. The only problem is I feel like people don’t answer that stuff realistically. You don’t know until you’re put into it, really. That’s for sure. Yeah. And that’s why I admit I mean, I’d play scared. I’d definitely be in fear of my own life and fear of those around me and fear of the people I care about. So I wouldn’t be the one if there was a new person that would want to join the group. I’d be like, no, you can’t, because we don’t trust you. We’re good here. My favorite hypothetical is, this has nothing to do with this, but if you could take a pill that every day, you had a shit exactly at the same time every day, but you only take one shit, and it’s perfect. Every day, one time. But if you miss it, you have all day, diarrhea and just the worst shits of all time. Would you do that? Yeah. What do you mean? Let’s say 930. You get stuck in traffic. That’s the time you have to take it. You just ruin your whole day. But you’re, like, affordability if that was the case, I’d plan my whole life around. Yeah, that’s what I would do, too. But, I mean, what if you have to take a flight somewhere or something? There’s certain things that are out of your control. You poop on the airplane. What are we, barbaric? Jesus. You take short of airplanes. Really simple. It all ties back together on account of the fact that I have bad shitting habits. That’s why I ask. To be perfectly candid, as we do on this podcast, I think I’m almost 600 days from the last time I took short in my pants. Good for you. And the last time was I was getting off an airplane. I was like, I don’t want to use the bathroom. I’ll hold it and just walking down the old jetway there. Your jetway was walking down, too. It’s it took short, that’s for sure, right? My short? Yeah, why not? Short happens. Nice. What do you get for Castle? Movie. Cool. So what I would do is make it I wouldn’t make it a kids movie again. I’d make it an adult movie, but it’s like a company oh, my God. Jesus. You’d make this one? No.

 

Participant #1:

Anyways, I would make it a company retreat. They’re all like a private jet. It’s like, 30 of them, and they land, and the same thing happens, and it’ll just be, like, basically based off their roles of the company. So what I would have is basically, like, Edward Norton. I would have as the CEO being the nerdy guy and he would play Ralph. So he’s kind of not nerdy, but you know what I mean, he’s kind of level headed. And then I would have Joaquin Phoenix as Jack, who would be like a sales guy who becomes all about getting after again food making sure he becomes like the crazy one, obviously. And then Piggy would be Seth Rogen. Piggy in this way would be more of like a funny light hearted, but also can be serious, which Seth Rogan is shown he can do. And he’d be kind of the guy like if you saw him as a tech guy from Apple, he’d be like, that role, pretty much, but more light hearted Wozniaki or whatever. Yeah, but obviously more light hearted than that because he’s a little bit more shy over there. But I think it would be kind of interesting role to see because all these guys are known to be able to take on like seem like to be an average guy, edward Norton and can be an average guy and then all of a sudden turn into something different pretty quickly and you’re believable. So I think that would just be a cool way to do it. I think it’ll also be interesting with your idea here if it’s this company, because there already is an assumed hierarchy within that company. But then when society is stripped from them, how do they actually respond? Yeah, once they realize you’re not a company, you’re just in the wilderness by that yourselves. Like, why the fuck am I listening to Co? You know, that’s what you assume at first. But then the same thing with Ralph. I have a conscience all of a sudden. He’s like, Why do I give a shit with this guy as a cons, who cares? Like, by the end, it would be great if it’s like it’s like the mailroom guy or something like that. Who is the Jack character? Well, I think the sales people make sense because they super get after it and that’s their whole mindset. Usually sales people are yes, no, I get it. But I’m just thinking more of just the idea that someone from the bottom yeah, some like CrossFit bro. It’s crazy. Yeah, exactly. Some CrossFit bro who’s the mail room. Things like, Hey, this is only a side gig. Working out is my main gig. Right. What about you? Well, I just thought in terms of a movie, similarly like Plane Crash. You think? But I came at it from the idea because none of these guys, besides the choir bros. Jack and his crew knew each other beforehand. Right. So everyone’s meeting each other for the first time. Yeah. So I feel like you have to do something along those lines. Or at least that’s what I was thinking of. So it would be like one of those vacation flights to like the Dr or something like that, where everyone’s on the plane, everyone’s super excited. You’re usually there with a family member or a couple or something like that, but that’s it. I was thinking something more along those lines were like, then that didn’t crashed. But then it just kind of gets into like lost territory. And really the only one that mattered to me was Roger because he turns into the most sadistic fuck. And he’s just the executioner pretty much. He’s like, all right, I’m going to kill like he consciously kills Piggy. He’s just like, no, I’m just going to kill this kid. So I wanted William Dafoe because I feel like William Dafoe would be great at that. So if you can work William Dafoe into your he’s almost like going to be like the Dwight Troot of your office. Yeah. What role did he play? Maybe marketing. Like us because we’re fucking sickos. Yeah, well, maybe we just actually just take the cast of the Office and do this to them. They go real dark, real quick. Yeah, exactly. Like, what if they came back there? We’re having an office reunion special and it was just them remaking Lord of the Flies that would ask. Angela would definitely be up there. She might be Jack. Her and Dwight would do like a dual jack roll. Yeah, that’s not the worst idea. I’m not going audio. Yeah, I’ll pitch it. Who owns it? NBC. I’ll pitch it to them. I want to do some literary questions quickly. Yes, I’m going to do some fast shooters at you. You can answer any way you can. Take as long as you want or as little as you want. Ready, set, go. Identify the most significant symbol in the novel. Come on. This is a subjective answer. No, it’s subjective. The conch. How is that? It represents society and anything you can blow on, if you know what I mean. D man, you literally just stole my hand. Anything you can blow on, baby. I said that earlier in the pod. You can’t just take that and say it. What did you say? Something about blowing on things? No, I said about the conch. What’s your answer? Is it also the conch? No, of course not. What is it? I tried not to think about this because I didn’t want to just kind of put you on the spot and then feel like I couldn’t. But I think I would say Piggy’s glasses because everything’s going good. He’s got his glasses on, everything’s fine. And then all of a sudden when things start to break down a little bit and no one listens to it anymore, like he breaks one lens clearly anymore. Yeah, it’s kind of dual meaning in that, like you said, not only everyone can’t see clearly anymore, but also like Piggy is like a representative of the intellectual. Yeah, but can you make it a double entendre or no, no, I can’t let the cons but what’s interesting is that the glasses also like start fires and fires burn down the island, fire saves them. Who knows? But then when Peggy loses glasses, it’s like, all right, it’s game over. So the glasses saved them all, is what you’re saying. That’s even though okay, compare and contrast Ralph and Jack as leaders. Which character is a stronger leader? Go, Jack. It’s about muscle. It’s about strength. It’s about power. It’s about I don’t know about honest, I don’t think of the rock song. What is that? Jack, you became the better leader. Yeah, I mean, Ralph is a good leader, there’s no question, but he’s, like, too moral. You know what I mean? It’s like one of those things where that’s why everyone ended up leaving him, because he’s just, like, too I don’t know if he’s that worse, too. I feel like he kind of sucked. I don’t know. You’re, like, kind of praising Ralph. You’re, like, blowing smoke up his conscious. But I don’t think he’s that good. But I guess in terms of leading a pack, like, Jack would be a good sergeant or someone or platoon leader, because he’s just like, all right, you give him an objective, he’ll go and do it. But Ralph sees the bigger picture. The problem is, what’s your goal as a leader? Is your goal just to be like, who can drive the emotions of men? Then it’s Jack. If your goal is like, who can push everything forward as a whole, it’s probably Ralph, but who knows either way? Next one. What does golden’s novel seem to be saying about human nature or society? We did that. That’s basically it. Yeah, we kind of did that. We did that. All right. We’re good there. Okay. So, Keith, we’re here. Would you recommend Lord of the Flies to your friends, to your family members, to your nieces and nephews? I think it’s a solid book. I think it’s kind of a book that you can reference a lot with. Kind of a lot of stories are based around it about good versus evil, about humanity and kind of what people will do once they’re faced with uncertainty or things like that. I think it’s interesting. In that matter. I wouldn’t go out of my way to recommend it to someone, but I do think it’s solid. I think it’s a good book to read in high school, and I’m happy I read we read it. I think it was cool to get to reread it and get the perspective of it later on. What about you? Yeah, I’m not even sure I read it in high school. I think I spark noted it back when you had to rent out spark notes or whatever. But I would definitely recommend it. What is it? It’s 200 pages. I own it at my house. I live by the beach. If someone came over and was like, hey, I’m going to go to the beach when I grab books. Well, you’re not going to finish a lot of books. Yeah, grab Lord of the Flies, see what happens. Maybe it’s like I’ll leave it in the bathroom. People are taking short. But the thing I like about this is it’s a good story, but also, at least for me, it did make me think. And it also made me think in a way that the ideas weren’t so blurred. Sometimes we read a book and be like, oh, this is, like, really symbolic of this. And the other thing, I didn’t see any of that. I’m really dumb. This they kind of spelled out the general ideas, and you could probably keep digging if you wanted to. But the general stuff, I feel like, was there to see, like, oh, okay, this is how it works. All right, so it’s coming up next for us. We’re going to do well of Ascension because we’re going back into the Miss Born series because we just liked it so much that why the hell not get another 30 hours book under our belt easy. Cool. Well, Keith, this has been fun. It was nice to take a literary journey, although we broke it down for the layman, I feel like. And by layman, I mean us. I feel so dumb reading stuff like this. Oh, good God. But either way, I’m excited. We got the summer coming up. We got some beach reads, but I guess until next time. Bye, now.