Shōgun (Chapters 47-End) – James Clavell – Episode 87

The Buddies take their 3rd and final crack at the ‘epic’ Shōgun by James Clavell. It’s been a long journey reading this 1,000+ page book, but if you followed along you’re now ready to dive into the new FX show. In their final installment the Buddies topics were very militaristic: ninjas, sacrificing pawns, pitched battles, and the dangers of pillow talk.  So join us for the last Banzai and our last time with our friends Toranaga, Mariko, Anjin, Omi, and Rodrigues.

Intro (0:00-2:36)
Stock Up/Down (2:37-36:21)
Favorite Scene/Character (36:22-41:28)
Love/Hate (41:29-51:30)
Lingering Questions (51:31-53:23)
Conclusion (53:24-58:32)

NEXT BOOK: Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut

Transcript for SEO purposes 🙂

All right, welcome buddy Book Club.
I’m Dylan here with…
Now?
Keith, what’s up buddy?
Hey, here we don’t.
You are my though.
It seems like someone would catch on to that.
Here at the Buddy Book Club, we’re bringing down some bestsellers in this week pool
once again, and for the last time,
be discussing Shogun by James Clevel.
If you’d like to recommend a book for us to read or reach out to us buddy,
past episodes, we visit our website, bydavilcottah.com,
our slide into our DMs, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, whatever you got.
That’s a Buddy Book Club podcast.
You can list to us wherever you’re podcast.
So please download and subscribe.
Keith, we did it.
We did it.
Honestly, is this the longest book you’ve read?
I have the paperback, you know, the like airport style paperback,
which is 1154 pages.
And I think the audiobook, what did we say it was?
Like 51 hours?
The only longer one was Brandon Sanderson’s, I think, the second wave king’s book.
I should honestly try to find a longer book because this is second place for me
behind the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.
Jesus.
That one’s a little bit much.
And it’s a very historical book on Nazi Germany, obviously.
But the cover of it is just a giant swastika.
So not a great way in the train.
Exactly. Yeah.
People just kind of give you the double, the double take on that one.
So yeah, maybe I’ll have to get into that.
But we’re not talking about Brandon Sanderson.
We’re not talking about Nazi Germany.
We’re talking about show gun.
Just a little insight for the listeners out there is we
had recorded the last episode, which came out, which was parts two and three.
Mm-hmm.
That was chapter 10 through 46, I believe.
Yeah.
So we recorded two and three and then you went off on a walk
about to Australia and now you’re back for our final installment.
So I think where we kind of left off was
Torinaga had capitulated to Zataki and he said he was going to Osaka to face the
Regents.
Anjansan had recently become Hattimoto after saving
Torinaga from the earthquake.
His love for Mariko continues to deepen.
And probably most importantly, he had some Kono Mishinju stuffed up his back passage.
I think that was okay.
I mustn’t miss that part, but the pearls, the pleasure pearls.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, go on.
Sorry.
Yeah, come on.
Get these together.
That’s my support.
Get that harry god out of your mouth and listen up.
Here we’re going to be doing the final installment, which is going to be
part four onwards.
Until the end, Keith, stock up, stock down.
What do you got for stock up?
Stock up, house of cards.
The TV show?
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, this is kind of going to be cancelled, just like that show.
No.
Well, I think you described this book as an epic.
And when an epic to me is typically going to be some sort of heroes journey,
huge wars, big set pieces, type of thing.
Well, I think that’s a little bit of a misnomer for this.
I think this is more of a house of cards or a down-abbey of Japan, if you will.
Don’t give me starving down, Abby.
There’s nothing wrong with those.
Those are great shows.
I’ve never seen down-abbey, but I know I love it.
Yeah, it’s wonderful.
I think it’d be season one house of cards, like, you know, the best season,
like, holy shit, this is insane.
Tons of drama, things like that.
But the one thing that I would say does a point is,
if you go and think is an epic, that last couple chapters, a little bit of buzzkill.
I wanted the on the plane ride back, by the way.
I started rewatching Lord of the Rings.
And I wanted that, the defense of, in the second one, the second movie, that-
You want to help Steve?
I wanted to help Steve.
Where was Helves Steve for me here?
Yeah, I needed it.
I’m so jazzed up right now, although sex toys that you’ve been talking about,
I’m ready to go.
And then we get like an epilogue of him being like, so yeah,
I want everything.
It was awesome.
I was like, wait, what?
That’s it.
It was good.
It was house of cards, but I wouldn’t call it an epic.
It’s definitely an epic.
It’s not the kind of epic that you wanted, I think.
And I will agree with you in that my memory of this book
involved significant amounts of pitched battles,
in which they’re actually none.
So, you know, I was also doing the thing, Granted.
Does the movies have them?
I can see maybe remembering the movies having more battles.
Well, it’s not a movie, it’s a mini series from the 80s.
And I can’t really remember how that goes.
I think I just seen last samurai so many times,
and then they both kind of blended together in my head.
That’s fair, that’s fair.
And I was also doing the same thing,
where like at the end of this book, once I finished it,
I was kind of like, tipped it upside down and was shaking it
to see like, hey, the pitch battle is going to come out of here?
Like, did I miss the pages or something?
So, yeah, it is unfortunate that, you know,
the whole time they’re talking about this inevitable war
between Toronaga and Ishito and they’re posturing, you know,
it’s, the whole thing is moving pieces on a chessboard,
and then all we get is like two paragraphs at the end,
which is like, you know, we dug a hole for a sheet,
we captured and dug a hole in the ground and everyone said,
“I needed to see the cap here and the kicking his head

129
00:05:16,960 –> 00:05:17,840
for three days in a row.”
And then, come on.
Yeah, it is unfortunate.
I will agree with you there.
Luckily, there’s a TV show coming out that I’m sure
will not miss on some pitch battles.
And yeah, I’m going to get into that a little bit more later.
So, yeah, I agree with you.
But if you were interested in fighting,
my first stock up is ninja!
I thought the ninja scenes and just like the ninja in general is awesome.
Samarizer bad ass, there’s no question.
But these ninja are incredible.
I mean, the way they infiltrate Osaka Castle,
the weapon real alone, they’re talking about these knives
that are attached to sticks with chains on them.
We’re talking about cow-trops that are poisonous.
We’re talking throwing stars like all the super fun ninja stuff.
And when I was young,
I feel like there was a lot more ninjas in pop culture.
You know, we obviously had Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles,
which I was Leonardo for like six years straight
for Halloween,
till the point that I couldn’t fit in the costume anymore
didn’t matter to me.
Three ninjas and three ninjas kick back.
Rocky loves Emily, who doesn’t love those movies.
And Beverly Hills Ninja, I mean, that was the movie’s terrible.
I’ve seen it again recently.
I’m just saying the ninja idea was so ingrained into pop culture
at the time that Chris Farley legitimately made a ninja movie.
You know?
Yeah, yeah.
So, I’m wondering if is there just not ninjas in pop culture anymore?
Did I just grow out of it?
And then I want to ask you if you ever had a ninja phase?
I wasn’t big in a ninja phase.
I was more of like a Navy SEAL Army phase.
Oh, okay.
I actually wanted to go to West Point until I was in middle school
and I remember we were looking up the how to get in.
It was like, you have to run two miles, six minute pace.
Yeah.
And I ran a mile and I said,
why in God’s name would anyone ever want to run?
Oh, interesting.
Yeah, yeah, I had a ninja phase.
I think I was in like kindergarten or first grade,
like obsessed with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
and then, you know, three ninjas came out
and I was like, this is freaking awesome.
Like these kids can beat a, oh, surf ninjas.
How do we even have surf ninjas?
I don’t know what that is.
Oh, wow.
You should watch that.
I guess I didn’t really understand the origins of ninjas.
So, that didn’t really…
I think that was part of the mystique.
You knew it was Asian,
but you didn’t know what.
You thought probably Japanese,
but you really didn’t care.
It was just, you know, they wore cool outfits
and they were stealthy and had awesome weapons.
My sister’s friends, like older brother,
convinced me he was a ninja
because he had, I mean, I was like six,
so can be a break.
But he had like some throwing stars or whatever.
And I was like, wow, like this amazing.
I feel like if you, it’s the first action movie
you watch, that’s whatever that is, you get into.
So if it’s like a karate movie,
you’re all of a sudden like,
John Codd, Bob Dottman,
you’re like trying to be a karate person.
I think I saw some sort of like,
Navy SEAL type movie when I was,
and it was the first action movie ever,
so I was like, okay, well, I guess I am now
going to be Navy SEAL, you know, one of those things.
So I think it just depends on what you see first as a kid.
How did you feel about the ninja scene in…
It was good. I mean, I thought it was cool.
Again, that was like the climax,
which I would have preferred to have Torin Augen
and that scene at some point, somewhere, you know,
something strategic around that,
which it just seemed like there was a lot of backstabbing
instead of cool, cool Warsaw.
It was kind of interesting that I feel like throughout
this book four to book six.
Torin Augen was like, kind of in book four a little bit,
and he was kind of in book six.
You know, there’s a whole part of Osaka castle
that he wasn’t really involved in.
But speaking about Torin Augen,
I’m going to jump into my next stock up
because it’s Appropo is stock up,
believing in your leader.
So I think we’re both…
I’m not going to speak for you,
but here, let me try.
I think we’re both, you know, disenchanted
to some degree with our own government.
You know, I would say that we’re not alone,
considering that according to Pew Research Center,
20% of Americans, trust the government,
quote unquote, most of the time.
So 20%, not pretty good, you know?
I think during the Eisenhower administration,
it was probably like 90%.
So it seems like what we need is a Torinaga
because his plans have plans.
He’s got contingencies on those plans if they don’t work.
We’re talking about a guy who masterfully plays
the Christian Dimeo’s against one another.
He’s getting little whispers in his ear,
sets his pieces on his chessboard,
and maybe it’s not even chess, you know?
He’s talking Falconry, you know?
He uses his Paragrand Falcon,
Mariko, he uses her perfectly.
I mean, he even associates it with chess saying
that he had to sacrifice his queen for a castle,
which is fair.
I don’t think you’d really do that in a game of chess,
maybe, but I’m not a chess player.
But, you know, setting up Zataki,
I thought the way he used Angenson was like so good.
He’s the definition of he’s playing chess
and everyone else is playing checkers
and living through his, like, monologues.
Like he has these, like, inner monologues that you hear
throughout the book.
I thought was a really good way of approaching
because like we talked about last time,
he can’t say these things to other people
because it’s all, you know, all the spies and whatnot.
So just kind of hearing it in his words.
And then figuring out at the end
because the whole thing was like who burned down the arasmas?
And it was like, oh, the, you know, Christian Dimeo’s did it,
she did it, whatever, it was like, not Torinaga did it.
And it was like, wait, what?
So I thought it was pretty awesome just like having
a leader like him in this.
And I think my only real question coming out of it
was whether he knew, we could save for lingering questions
but I’m just gonna ask an hour.
Because it’s like whether he knew that Yabu would betray him.
Because he finds out at the end through Omi,
that Omi’s guys were like, oh yeah, Yabu was down there
with the ninja.
So they figured out.
But Torinaga know because part of his plan was
for Marco to die.
So did he know Yabu would do that and let that ninja in?
Or exact, I’m not exactly sure what he thought
in terms of Yabu at that point.
Well, if he thought Yabu is gonna be
bad the whole time, I don’t know,
or like, get away, you just didn’t kill him in the first place.
Like he provided no value throughout the book.
Or anything, he was a deterrent.
Yeah, so he like must have, right?
You know, that was, because-
That’s part of the plan.
I feel like that’s like being like,
not mistaken they made, though, is, you know,
they fumbled the ball, but he knew they were
gonna get the ball back after they fumbled it.
It’s like, what?
It isn’t, I don’t give him much credit for that one.
Okay, okay.
But a lot of the interesting aspects of it tie into the fact
that this being like feudal Japan and Bushito code and whatnot
and Buddhism, all that stuff,
with him being able to make these audacious, like, gestures
in this political situation, because, okay, well,
what’s the worst case I have to kill myself?
That’s what I’ve already agreed to do anyways.
So I might as well swing for the fences here.
Like, what’s the point?
Yeah, I do think it was interesting too
that we find out that one, we had a little game of throne
stuff going on with-
So the tyco’s wife sleeping with-
Lady Ochobo.
Sleeping with a person that looks like-
It was kind of like a game of throne stuff going on.
Yeah, and that was a cool scene.
He knew about that, obviously.
But like, and then he gives him the option of being-
Yeah, you just take everything over and he’s like,
nah, I’ll kill myself instead of doing that.
Which, why?
You’re talking about the flashback when it’s Lady Ochobo,
which is a great scene when she is like,
this peasant thing she’s got us and-
Or, you know, a kami and then sleeps with her.
It’s awesome, awesome scene.
But then you’re saying about the whole meeting-
I think what he was saying in that meeting,
if he had said, okay, yeah, give it to me in one of the cases,
it’d be like, ha ha, got you.
Like, I knew that’s what you wanted.
He’s not bluffing in that he would commit Sepulchoo
because I think he would,
but he has to say that in order to not commit Sepulchoo.
Does that make sense?
You know what I’m saying?
Yeah, I mean, that’s how it goes.
But like, at the end, there’s one last throwaway sentence
that he’s like, I want to be showgun.
He just doesn’t even want it to be that the whole time.
That’s the whole time.
Wait, that’s the point is he’s denied it in public or whatever.
But even in his internal monologue,
he’s been like, nah, I don’t want to be in it.
The last throwaway sentence is like, and I want to be showgun.
I was like, he spent 50 hours, you telling us he didn’t want to be it?
I don’t think he ever said that in the internal world.
There’s just other people,
but because he was like, my plan the whole time was to be showgun.
You know, these idiots believe me.
Of course he’s going to kill the kid or how is he going to take it?
No, I think he is kind of like what you said is now what will happen is he’ll be showgun.
He could, you know, with Lady Ochoba, he could adopt Yaman as his heir.
So he could have just married her there,
and that would have solved things too.
I feel like there’s a lot of like circular logic here going on.
And he could have just married her when he was at the castle early on.
Yeah, I’m not sure.
He’s like, I’ll never do that because I’d give her too much power.
I’m like, oh, okay.
So he really doesn’t want to be it because if he wanted to be it, he’d just do it.
He also said he couldn’t sleep at night being married to her because she would slip his throat
and sleep.
I mean, she’s a cunning in this.
I’ll just have her do Cipico, Cipico.
What’s that word?
I can’t say it ever.
Cipico, just have her do Cipico, right?
Like five days after you get married.
Easy peasy.
I mean, let’s play with the rules, kid.
I mean, it’s easy day here.
I don’t know what we’re doing.
Yeah, okay.
All right.
What else do you have a stock up?
Stock up crossing your fingers?
Oh.
I ever do this as a kid.
Your parents are like, did you eat that last cookie and you’re like, no.
And they’re like, you did?
Why are you lying?
You’re like, I was crossing my fingers.
So like, it doesn’t count.
Like, it’s like an unoriverous card.
It’s like a, I’m familiar with the idea of crossing your fingers.
It’s opposite day.
You know, I’m just telling you all the things you could say as a kid again with stuff.
That’s what they do in this book when Torinaga goes to Boontaro and Boontaro is like,
she cheated on me.
She’s betrayed me.
She’d ruin my honor and he’s like, actually, actually.
I made her secret divorce before you left.
There’s all solved now.
Everything solved.
There’s a little unoriverous card, a little cross of fingers.
The whole time she was divorced.
She could be cheating with you and banging black them the whole time
and embarrassing you to your face.
Don’t worry about it.
I loved it.
Great move by the way.
Yeah.
Torinaga just, yeah, no, no, it’s all solved.
Post-ated that check, everything’s good.
Yeah, that was all a lie though.
No, I thought she actually did.
No, that was a lie.
He basically said that to make Boontaro think that she did love him and was honest with him.
And basically just to make sure Boontaro didn’t go and kill the engines on right there.
Right, right.
So he was like, no, actually, he was all this great stuff.
Like I said, you guys would be divorced and this, that, the other thing,
when really, it was blackthorn that asked for them to be divorced.
He was like, I want to marry Mariko.
Like can we you divorce them?
But Torinaga asked her if she wanted to divorce.
And she said at one point she said, well, I couldn’t dishonor him like that.
So I didn’t think it was that far of the realm of both his ability that he
would secretly say, you’re going to go to this place.
You’re going to commit suicide.
Also, I’m going to give you that divorce.
I’m going to force you to make that divorce now.
So you’re like free from this dude for that trip.
Yeah, I don’t think, um, I don’t think you can just like
do that in the sense you can’t be like, oh, you’re divorced and then not have anyone
aware and then the only one you should be saving, if you cross your fingers,
you can be able to be saving it from would be like her own shame.
But like she doesn’t have any shame about banging blackthorn, you know what I mean?
She, they seem very happy together.
So yeah, I think it was just to make sure Boontaroo didn’t like go crazy.
And then also just, you know, loved his wife in the afterlife and made it easier for him.
Unless, yeah, if I was him, I’d rather be lied to.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
You’d rather live your life out because it doesn’t matter one way or the other.
Like nothing’s going to change.
It’s only like your mentality.
It’s probably like more of a philosophical question as to,
if someone that I’m never going to see again,
slided me and someone was like, oh, no, they didn’t.
I’d be like, oh, all right, cool.
And then I just move on with my life.
So release the grudge?
Yeah, exactly.
No reason to hold on to that.
Either way, I liked it.
I don’t care what the, I just like the strategy.
I appreciate it.
Okay, I dig it.
Speaking about moving on, that’s my next stock up, which is,
which is, which is moving on.
And really, it’s a less than tall, the young folk out there.
Because people,
never been broad, broad, strong stocks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, people tend to hold on to things.
So it’s time to move on.
And people in general, you know, we all grow and change in our lives.
And just because you were friends with someone for a long time,
doesn’t mean that you have to just keep being friends with them
because you were, you know, that was a moment in your life.
And it worked out then.
But I’m thinking about Blackthorn and his crew here.
Because Blackthorn, he learned to embrace Japanese culture
and the cleanliness that that entails.
But also just to kind of use this experience
to further himself and his crew.
He wanted his crew to join him on this endeavor.
But his crewmates, disgusting.
They live in filth in an eddavillage with their
lice-ridden doxies and they’re just obsessed with their doxies.
If you’re trying to bring those clothes with you on this journey,
but instead they’re more interested in horing and living in filth,
it’s probably best to move on from them.
It’s as simple as that.
And I just found it so interesting
because we haven’t heard from his crew throughout all the,
you know, the after the first book, you know,
we haven’t heard from books two and three.
And then all of a sudden Blackthorn, who’s now Hottimoto,
decides to, you know, oh, I’ve go see him see my crew
and they’s just like, where are they taking me?
It was such an interesting scene for me because then he’s like walking into that,
like, house, that was one of the ones I could like visualize.
Like I could see him like clean and samurai walking into this like,
smoky, gross place with all these like,
unclean, stinking people.
And they’re super jazz to see him like splash and grog in his face and no teeth.
Just smelling.
It was like, oh my god, I could almost like feel his skin crawling.
We’re thinking it from our perspective,
but I think a more analogous way to look at it is would be
if your friend, me and you, right,
and you go off and all of a sudden you come back
and you become a huge germaphobe.
And so you’re like, I like open a door and you’re like,
don’t, you know, like I would have rub like,
I’ll call on your hands immediately like,
oh gross, I can’t believe you do that.
And I’m like, oh, my bad.
Like, and then like we go to a bar and I’m like,
hey, you want to take a sip?
Like, no, get that away from me.
Like, oh, you do drink from that.
That’s disgusting.
Like, oh, this is gross.
And you’re like constantly.
So I think that’s the level of change that they’re getting into.
I would think you joined a cult.
I’d be like, what is fucking up with this dude?
Like all of a sudden being so,
mighter than now.
Oh, that’s so cleansing.
Yeah, you like that?
I kind of empathize with them.
I understand from our perspective, it’s obviously gross that like,
they’re living this squall or well,
but that’s just would be a huge, huge difference all of a sudden.
Yeah, no, I agree.
It perspective is is important.
And especially that’s how they always lived.
I think the, the life crawling all over you is probably,
that’s someone that lives in Cape Cod in like,
tick season is just starting.
And I’ve seen a couple of ticks crawling around on my dog.
I’m like, oh, this is disgusting.
Like, throw the dog out like,
yeah, I don’t think there’s any period in time
or the world where people were like,
like, okay, it was crawling around you,
but then again, you could think germs are crawling over me,
you know, so it’s same similar thing.
Yeah, maybe.
I think my limit is I have to be able to see them.
If they can be seen with the naked eye,
that’s a good point.
Yeah, yeah, that’s fair, that’s fair.
And you can definitely see life.
Trust me, my sister had them in third grade.
It was disgusting.
Oh, wow, blotter spotter.
Yeah, sorry, sorry, T.
Sorry, T dog.
Do you have anything else for us, doc?
Yeah, last one, rags to riches, doc,
yeah, little ragged dick.
Sorry.
We’re back.
So usually these stories have the same arc.
Come from nothing, you have the typical surge to prominence,
and then, you know, you get greedy or your prominent downfall, right?
Little commuppence.
Yeah, this one I think starts with Black Thorne
going from riches, you know, is boat, captain,
all this stuff to rags.
I’m by the major.
And then going to like, billionaire riches level,
basically going to a new planet and finding things
he didn’t realize were possible in terms of riches.
And then sorry ends with like, yeah, his girlfriend died,
but he’s in a pretty good setup.
Yeah, he gets Kiku, right?
Exactly.
Upgraded models, he’s, you know, he’s basically able to build ships.
He’s like, living the dream.
There’s no downturn.
What it’s bad’s going to happen to him.
Well, I can’t leave.
I don’t think he would leave.
Like I said, he went to another planet that’s so good,
why would you leave?
Yeah, I mean, he wants to leave.
I also looked up the real dude,
and he had a chance to go back, and he was like, nah,
Oh, really?
Let’s stay here.
And you think?
So he was like, oh, he got a chance to go back to Europe,
and he was like, nah, I’m good.
I’m gonna stay here.
Yeah.
Which I think after one or two more years, he would have been like,
yeah, I’m good.
I’m fine with this.
I mean, I would be just based on the cleanliness level,
but it is somewhat of a golden cage, you know,
you think about he’s got a wife and kids.
You know, he misses his wife and kids for sure.
And does he though?
Come on.
I mean, the dude took a four-year trip.
He don’t really miss your wife and kids.
That’s just the name of the game, though.
That’s just how you go.
I don’t know about that.
So, I mean, he expresses interest in–
I guess he’s like an astronaut, so I guess that is.
Yeah.
I guess that is.
OK.
But like an astronaut could still communicate with their family.
So it’s a little bit–
Yeah, well, of course.
This is different times.
I mean, we’re also talking about like, not long ago,
you know, a hundred years ago,
my grandparents came over on a boat
leaving their family behind to a new country to look for.
Well, that’s because they’re escaping their germ.
I mean, I–
No, I don’t know.
Yeah.
They were in German.
They were Italian, though, some miscellaneous.
But that was before–
That was after.
It came over right around 1945.
It was weird.
I don’t know why they’re leaving.
Move to Argentina, change their names.
Yeah.
No, yeah, it’s just–
I think it’s a different time.
And like, that thing–
that’s just the way it was.
You know, if you want to be one of the best pilots in the world,
you have to go out on many years trips.
Like, that’s just the way it is.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, I think that he’s kind of somewhat in a golden cage.
And I agree.
There’s no– there’s no hero’s journey.
There’s no, like, downside of–
Yeah.
of the fall.
It was good to see the Rags of Ritchers,
because I feel like–
or a different model of that.
Because I do feel like the last samurai had the Rags
of Ritchers still, where he’d be like, oh, he’s
going to have that montage where he starts learning
and doing– he’d have that.
There’s always–
and then he has to sacrifice at the end of the book,
or he has to do something that changes things.
It wasn’t really that bad in Last Samurai,
there, at the end, he’s like sides with the samurai.
Yeah, but he ended up dying.
He doesn’t die in Last Samurai.
He doesn’t die?
Yeah, it’s probably everybody’s dying.
Yeah, no.
He doesn’t die.
No, the other–
I thought he died.
the samurai dies.
Oh, OK.
But Ken–
The last samurai dies?
Yeah.
All right, we’re back.
The guy played by Ken Wontonave.
He dies.
OK.
So that’s why he goes and presents his sword to the emperor.
And is like, hey, don’t forget your roots.
And the emperor is like, no more Westerners here.
That lasted until the next war.
So my last stock up was Faining Illness.
Stock up.
So people do this when they’re hungover for work.
I’ve heard of that before in my 20s.
I remember those days.
But it’s actually pretty well used in this book,
because anytime someone doesn’t want to do something,
or just needs to delay, they’re like, yeah, he’s sick.
Even Hiramatsu is like that.
Once he figures out, or Torinaga tells him his plan,
he’s like, I’m not going to the sake of psychopath.
Why would I do that?
That’s so stupid.
Hiramatsu is like, let me kill myself,
because I’m so dumb.
I didn’t see that.
Chill out, bro.
I hope that that character is in–
Hiramatsu isn’t show.
Yeah.
All right, great.
I really hope he just doesn’t have any lines
other than, I’m going to kill myself.
I think just walks in.
That’s the first sentence of every time he walks in.
I think it kind of is.
I forget.
I suddenly saw the first episode.
But yeah, it’s like Hiramatsu is, I’m not going to be able
to play this part.
I don’t know how to lie.
You do.
I’m not good at this.
He’s like, so I’m just going to be sick for now on.
It’s like, yeah, fine.
Just say you’re sick.
And everyone is just saying they’re sick left and right.
And I love it.
I mean, I usually do it the other way where I say the wife’s sick.
If someone I haven’t hung out with in a while,
they’re like, hey, let’s do something.
And I really should.
And I want to, but also the couch is calling.
So I’ll be like, you know what?
Care’s not feeling that good.
Not going to happen.
That’s me a few times.
That’s weird.
What the hell?
Well, you know what?
That’s just the way it is.
It’s cat’s out of the bag now.
But yeah, it’s a great excuse.
And it’s good to know that in the 60 hundreds,
they were still using it to this day as we are.
Respect.
Yeah, respect.
I was stuck down.
What do you have?
I had one.
And this is the big one.
OK.
It’s sacrificing ponds, stuck down.
I mean, you already mentioned it that there’s a lot
of chess references, which I didn’t realize chess was a thing.
Neither did I.
I’m still not sure it is.
But there’s a common phrase in chess.
You sacrifice a pond because it’s something
lesser of a value to get in a strategic advantage.
But I don’t care what he says.
He treats Marieco as a pond.
He’s like, I’m going to bring you over there
and basically you’re going to play a role in this
and you’re going to die.
That’s sacrificing ponds is.
That’s the definition of it right there.
Why?
Why would you do this?
She’s a queen.
She’s a king if anything.
I mean, she’s basically the best military strategist
that she has.
He listens to her more than once anyway.
She speaks multiple languages.
She is the huge asset for trading, for the religious
kind of go between.
What’s the word for that?
Emissary?
Liaison?
Yeah, someone that–
Liaison, that’s the word I was saying.
She’s a liaison for the religious side, the trade side,
and even for the European side with Black Thorn.
He’s learning all these military strategies
because she’s able to communicate that to him.
She’s just a huge asset.
And she picks up a sword and protects him at one point.
And she’s like a knight in shining armor.
Whoa, whoa, knight in shining kimono.
And she– I forgot to mention–
see, there’s a tornada as ruse or is–
like, his whole plan.
So she’s the only one, the only people that–
She’s the only one that’s close to her.
And she’s that.
Yeah, so it’s–
what a waste of a talent, you know, like I said,
a king and a queen combined.
The other thing, too, I just want to point out,
is every single woman in this book is the smartest person
in the book.
They’re all the smartest.
Tornada, I guess, is up there.
But if you think of Mariko, you think of Yabu’s wife,
you think of the brothel woman who’s super connected.
You think of the Ochi-ba?
They’re all super resourceful, super smart,
all able to see through everything and actually see strategies.
They’re not even in the room with these people,
whereas the right-hand man and left-hand man
are like, what’s going on here?
Oh, he’s acting?
Oh, my– are these people idiots?
What are we doing?
The women here, the key to the society,
so let them run shit.
Yeah, tornada.
Don’t kill Mariko.
Bullshit.
Sorry, I didn’t know it was a time.
Because even when Mariko dies at the end,
he’s like, I hope you’re Buddhist and not
this stupid Christian bullshit.
And I hope when you’re reborn, you’re
reborn in my company and you’re not reborn a man
because your talents would be wasted as one of these idiot
men who just go around swinging their sword around,
thinking they know everything when you’re actually
the real genius behind it all.
And I agree with you on all accounts.
She is not a pawn though.
She is a queen, as you said.
She’s a queen, King Kamba, whatever the point is.
But she’s the king, then she’s the queen.
And sometimes you have to sacrifice your queen
to win the game.
And it’s so late in the game here that you
can take that move without really setting yourself back
because without Mariko’s sacrifice, he then
can’t take the show in it.
Like it’s that simple.
So he needs–
When he uses on mom to do it, to what she did?
To do what she did?
Yeah, because she’s technically health hostage as well, right?
Yeah, but I think the idea is that she’s so venerated.
Like Mariko is so venerated throughout all of the community
and especially within Osaka Castle,
within the women themselves.
Like the women look to Mariko as like she’s
the most important woman besides Lady Oceba.
So if she’s going to do this, then the other women will then
be like, feel comfortable raising their hands.
I mean, like, I want to leave too.
Wait, I want to leave.
I want to leave.
And then if she’s also going to commit Sepuku,
it would only be then that Lady Oceba would turn around
and be like, whoa, you can’t let her do this.
Like this is going to screw everything up.
So–
Oh, so she breaches all these different families versus–
just as mom did it.
It wouldn’t be as big of a sacrifice, you’re saying?
She just has more pull.
And it’s like his mom, of course she would.
But even though Mariko is Lady Toda is one of his vassals,
she still has better ties to the other–
she’s Christian as well.
So Kiyama would be like, whoa, what?
You’re just going to like kill this Christian girl,
as well as the other Christian Dimeos.
And then it’s less of an obvious ruse than your mom doing it,
who’s an old lady too.
It’s like she’s going to die enemies.
So it’s sacrificing a queen.
But I do understand what you’re saying.
My first talk down is Pillow Talk.
Go on, say something.
Usually, like, pre-or post-coidal Pillow Talk is fairly benign.
Talk about what happened during your day.
You know, you maybe talk about a good meal,
what’s on the agenda for tomorrow.
That kind of stuff.
It’s nothing sinister.
You do like a rating system at the end, yeah.
Yeah, it’s like, you got to see plus today.
Good for you, wow.
Yeah, it’s usually my best record stuff.
It’s just going off my best.
But not in futile Japan, I guess.
All these samurai, after they release their silken ropes,
they just want to spill the beans on everything they know.
So it doesn’t–
They spill, they spill, you know?
Exactly.
So it doesn’t matter who they’re talking to.
It’s a woman from the Willow world who–
she’s got other suitors.
There’s people ease dropping all over the place.
And these samurai are just telling them everything
they know about people’s plans, whatever the deal is.
I thought it was just so ridiculous.
You’re just agreeing with what I said last time.
I was like, they’re all emo.
And that checks out now.
I was like, oh my god, you won’t believe what Torinaga had told me today.
Well, yeah, and I think it’s also probably interesting
because you’re living as a samurai in this very strict and rigid society,
where you can’t say anything directly to anybody.
But the second you get through that Jade Gate,
and you unleash your juice, everything else just spills out too.
And that makes sense, honestly.
Yeah, they’re like a therapist.
Yeah, exactly.
It’s like the only time you can actually tell exactly what’s on your mind
is like during these times, which is fascinating
because it also gives Gioku who you’re talking about before,
a ton of power and consequently, Torinaga, the entire empire,
because Gioku puts those whispers into his ear
about pretty much everything that’s going on.
That’s also a game of ground thing, right?
Isn’t that the whole–
Yeah, that’s–
That’s a little finger, whatever.
Not like the brothel?
Yeah, a little finger has the brothel,
but even the bald guy, Varys, or whatever his name is,
these are Varys.
He’s the king of whispers or whatever the case is.
Right, right.
And most of it’s in the brothels, right?
They’re listening to the–
Yeah, he’s got spies everywhere.
So the idea of spies is really well used in this as well.
But it seems like the brothels is the best place to do it.
And once Torinaga sets up this whole willow world area of the city,
it’s just going to be spy haven.
He’s going to know everything.
So Pilotuck, “Stuck Down,” unfortunately.
Be careful what you say there.
And then lastly, “Stuck Down.”
We probably won’t see ourselves in this position,
but it’s worth mentioning.
Being the guest of a Japanese lord,
it seems fun at first.
You’re the guest of someone very important,
and you’re going to these beautiful dinners
and all this fun stuff.
But the next thing you know, it’s like a bar in the movie
of Brawk’s Tale.
They close the door and lock in.
Like, now you can’t leave.
It’s an unfortunate thing.
The funny thing to me in this was how everyone
knows their hostages, but it takes someone like Lady Tota
to have her Jesus moment and be willing to sacrifice
herself for everyone to be like, whoa, actually,
being a hostage is not cool.
I want to go home.
How do we feel about Lady Ochova’s birthday party
when she pretty much continues her so sorry
to shoot out?
And it’s like, no, no, no, like, I’m going to go home.
Like my legular told me that I have to leave.
Mariecoe became my favorite character by far
by the end of the book because of that scene.
That, and she’s like, well, I’m leaving, actually.
And this is like the first samurai that comes up to them.
And he says, well, by order of, you know, you should know,
I can’t let you leave.
And she’s like, cool.
Buddy, kill him.
And just fucking slush his throat.
I was like, holy shit.
That was awesome.
I love that.
And then for all the reason he gets all of her samurai killed.
And then she’s like, I guess I’m not going to do this.
And I was like, wait, what?
What was the point of that?
I wish she killed that first guard
and then they started doing it again.
And so you should have kept all of her boys with her.
And then been like, listen, I’m not going to kill everyone here.
I’m going to commit suicide in 30 minutes.
Get your shit together.
Or I’m right now, not like a day from now, you know?
I’m leaving right now.
– Well, you need the day because I think if you said 30 minutes,
you wouldn’t have enough time for–
– That’s not my problem, Kim.
You wouldn’t have enough time for Ishito and to actually think
about this whole thing.
– You didn’t hear me on the phone with Stubbub, Kim.
I said, if I don’t get this ticket in 30 minutes,
I will cut, because I’m stuck with her.
Yeah.
– I’m stuck with her right now.
Oh.
Yeah, she didn’t.
That’s why she didn’t keep continuing is because then she
didn’t want to get captured.
Because if you got captured, then she wouldn’t be able
to kill herself and then she just–
Right, right.
Be captured.
So she had to make sure she could get back to–
– But she knew she wasn’t going to get out.
They had like a whole army behind the door.
– Yeah, but that’s the point is the point was that
so she could make this giant scene in front of everyone
of the castle, Ishito is lost face now
because of this ridiculous situation.
He’s stopping her from doing what her legelord’s bidding.
And so then she’s going to have to commit Sepuku.
And then Ishito has to think about this whole thing,
but like, he almost now there and he’s like, did what?
And then Ochi was like, you can’t kill her.
You can’t let her kill herself.
She’s super important.
It was a very good plan in my mind.
What did you have for a favorite scene?
I mean, I just very spoiled it.
Yeah, sure.
When she killed That first samurai, I was fucking locked in.
And she was like, the unmitigated temerity.
Her being like, no, no, no, I’m going.
And he’s like, you’ll listen to me and she’s like,
yeah, cool, cool, no, no, I’m going.
I just–
Oh, I see your son is later, she was birthday party.
– Both of those scenes were, well, he’s like, no, you’re not.
She’s like, that’s funny because I am.
I don’t give a fuck, but you say, I was like, God damn it.
Let’s go.
Yeah, Marie goes the best.
Yeah, even Blackthorn during the birthday party was awesome
because everyone’s expecting this, like,
the barbarians they’ve seen are priests.
So they’re expecting someone like that.
But then he walks in, looking like a samurai,
and he’s giving gifts to Lady Ochiabah, this, you know,
flower or whatever.
He’s just so swabbed in that situation.
The other Japanese woman are like, whoa, like,
this guy is pretty cool.
And then it’s him and Marie go.
– He’s got that katana hanging low,
yeah, I think, good.
– Yeah, and even if Shido tries to like,
talk trash to him and he’s like, yeah, whatever, like,
fuck off.
It’s like, whoa.
And the Kiyama is like, hey, you’re never allowed where I am.
And he’s like, all right, chill out, bro.
And then Marie go comes and it’s like,
the most dynamic do I’ve ever seen.
It’s like, that was the best birthday party
anyone’s ever been to in Japan.
– Yeah, that’s pretty sick.
Yeah, I agree.
I think my favorite scene was the ninja scene
just because it’d be cool like in cinema too.
And I agree with you that Marie go trying to leave
was awesome because that was our most pitched battle type
situation where a samurai comes up,
spouts his name and his lineage,
and then they go like one on one,
and then, you know, whoever wins, wins,
and whoever dies, dies,
but then whoever wins then has to go
and take the next person.
So for the Browns, it was badass
because there’s like, you know, 20 of them.
And even if they killed 30 of the next guys,
like, well, they still have to just keep fighting
until they die.
That was a great city.
Yeah, maybe realize why you like the rate of drag
and so much because it was giving me those one on one vibes
of best man wins type to the death.
Yeah.
I thought That was pretty cool.
Fuck, I miss rate of drag and so I was a great book.
I like the ninja scene just because I said,
like all the cool stuff that the ninjas are doing
and then like Black Thorn blasting people
through the doors and whatnot.
And I’ve said I’d read this book before,
but I forgot.
It was a long time ago.
I had like an inkling that Mario go died,
but I wasn’t 100% so it did hit me kind of hard
when she died.
When it’s like really unfortunate
because it seemed like they were so close
to stopping the ninja in general.
Yeah.
– All of a sudden she’s gone.
And I think, ’cause you know, our next category here
which is pick your character
and I think we’re on the same page because mine’s Marco.
I mean, she was the most interesting character
throughout this entire book.
She’s the most badass.
That goes without question.
Like yes, Toranaga might be a better strategist
but she’s 1A behind his one and in terms of badassery.
She’s number one, Black Thorns 1A.
This is a Mario story.
So as much as it’s posed as like a Black Thorn
or a Tarnaga situation, like it’s really about her
and especially with the duality between her
Buddhist self and her Christian self.
– Well this is in a book if you don’t have her in it.
She literally connects all the pieces together
otherwise she’s religious.
She can speak another language.
So she can talk to Black Thorn.
She can speak with Toranaga.
She can speak with the other women.
You don’t have her.
There’s no story.
and even the simplest stuff
that I’ve found the most entertaining with her
was like her and Giyoku negotiating.
It was like so much fun.
‘Cause it’s just like these two very smart
and cunning women going back and forth
about like financial negotiations.
It’s like why is this so interesting but it is.
So and honestly like you said before, the women in this
they once again showing we men are nothing without them
because we talked about Mariko.
We talked about Giyoku.
What is That called?
Simpin?
Are you Simpin right now?
– You had even mentioned Yabu’s wife
and it’s funny because Yabu’s wife had this whole plan
for him and he would probably still be alive
if he had his wife within Osaka
instead of blundering her the plan.
She was like yeah okay just be a toronogue
and he’s like all right then he leaves his wife
for like five minutes so I don’t know what to do.
I don’t know what to do.
– He’s watching Muhammad Ali
and you know like the fight where he pretends
like he’s injured and just sits in the corner the whole time.
This guy’s undefeated is the best boxer ever
and he’s like no I’m gonna get some.
He must be like sucking this time.
It’s like you don’t think this guy is an absolute stud.
What are you doing?
That’s why I didn’t get why.
They’re like yeah he’s never lost a battle
but all of a sudden he’s just an idiot.
Huh?
Like what?
What are you doing?
So and he was he really was doing the right aeropodo.
– He was that’s why everyone fell for it
is because yes although toronogue had done so much
in his career it was like he can’t get out of this one.
This one’s impossible to get out of
but it’s also that toronogue is older and people are younger
and you know memory changes things.
So you know when they were younger they’re like
yeah maybe it wasn’t that good
but he probably had already done the same thing before.
Keith Shogun, parts four through six
books four through six.
How have you wanna say it?
What’d you love about it?
Love I think this is one of those books
that any time anyone talks about Japan
or even mentions Asia I’m gonna bring up.
So I never really had read any books that I think
that were in Asia or really we don’t really get
a lot of history of Asia you know in school
and there’s not a person on that.
We did like We read like the crane book
Thousand Cranes which is like the nuclear attacks
on Hiroshima.
All We read was the good earth.
No I never heard That one.
This is gonna be my becoming you know anytime anyone mentions
I was actually in the Uber in Australia
and the guy was like yeah Japan is my favorite
I was like funny enough.
Oh, nah.
have you read Shogun?
Yeah.
– And he’s like no I’m like idiot.
– It’s cool is it.
– It’s kind of like a war in peace book
but like for Japan it’s like such a long book
and it’s an impressive thing to have in your resumes.
I really did like it and I thought
I’d never even consider visiting Japan
and now I’m like I think I like it.
I mean for me It was All I could think about for weeks.
So the wife’s first.
– You’re speaking for weeks.
– Yeah and that’s where the wife’s frustration is
she’d be saying stuff and I’d be like oh haunto
and she’d be like what?
I’d be like is that the truth?
What are you talking about?
– She’s eating food the dinner table you slap
out of your hand you’re like your focus should be on me.
You should not be the eating.
why are you eating?
You didn’t eat before then you’ll eat afterwards.
What do you think?
Yeah you deal with the finances
and I will sit here and enjoy my meal.
Yeah exactly.
You balance the checkbook and then I’m gonna eat
and you’re gonna serve me warm sake.
But yeah I mean really just all the Japanese stuff
just the sayings and whatnot you know it’d be like
oh this and this happening.
The washing machine broke and I’d be like
yeah I should’ve got the gunna.
What are you fucking talking about?
I’d be like it just did this what it is.
What are you talking about?
Carbonic.
– Yeah it’s carbonic.
Yeah it was awesome.
So it was really because this book is so long
and it’s so immersive I was just I was living in it
and I love that very much.
I didn’t even realize also that I was immersion
myself in things like related to Japan.
You know I started watching Blue-eyed Samurai
which is like an anime show on Netflix
that was quite good which actually takes place.
I think I said this a lot.
But it takes place right after this.
It’s like 1630s excuse me.
And then I started watching like Tokyo Vice
which I didn’t even realize like Michael Mann
directed show which is really interesting
and also mostly in Japanese.
So I was like diving into Japanese stuff
plus I was doing all this World War II stuff
which tied back into it.
So yeah it was great.
It was just I just really dove into the Japanese cultures
or at least pseudo cultures based on these other
pop culture things but it was fun.
What else do you love anything else?
– Yeah ultimately the things I think we’ll remember
is bonsai and a couple of the major scenes
mariko I think was sick.
I just think the culture itself is like rubbed off
in terms of like what the history was like there.
So that’s the biggest like overarching thing
that I would take away.
– Yeah and to that point you know a lot of this I don’t know
you know we’re not gonna go back
and study Japanese history so we might be absolute idiots
in the sense of that we’re making this seem like it’s
you know written in stone but it might be apocryphal.
But if it was somewhat realistic
which I think it was it made learning fun.
Like imagine if this was like a felt like history.
Yeah But with like a really fun story behind It
and some guy that wrote a book about show gun or something
like that he said you know and I quote he said it’s a virtual
encyclopedia of Japanese history and culture
somewhere among those half million words one can find
a brief description of virtually everything one wanted
to know about Japan.
And I think that just sums it up so well
because we heard this awesome story but I also feel like
I do kind of know what it was like for a peasant
to if you to lord to live in 1600 Japan.
I mean historical fictions I mean that’s why I think
we like them it’s just you get a taste of history
and then you get a good story it’s not one of the other
it’s a little bit of both.
Yeah We might have to read some some Shira books
like the Gettysburg one or the one before
’cause those are great historical fiction too.
Would you hate?
– It’s 50 hours you know not the best payoff
a little bit of love to have some sort of
some a little bit more closure there.
I also think there should be a little bit more closure
for some of the side characters.
We get introduced to a lot of these people
and I don’t feel like we really got the true ending
for a lot of the characters that I would like to see.
So I think just overall closure would be
the kind of thing I would underline there
or if you’re gonna make it 50 hours
I kind of need some sort of finale if you will.
– Yeah I’m with you and that’s with me as well.
More battles, any more samurai fighting.
You know I’d love to have like one actual pitched battle
just to see how that fight went out
because I watched Napoleon recently,
the Ridley Scott walking Phoenix movie.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.
you heard about It, Yeah.
It wasn’t an awesome movie honestly
but the pitched battle scenes were super fun.
It’s like oh, this is you know,
in a lot of times brave heart.
I like that movie I’ve been seeing it in a really long time
but I do remember the battle scenes.
It’s something I wish there was more of.
I’m trying to think about the one
of actual fights that were in here.
We have like an Osaka Street fight
when Torinaga attempts to leave.
We got Yabu, Ambushing, Joseph
which is really just like a bunch of couple of guys
just like killing another guy who were running away.
We have then obviously the Browse VS. Grey’s
and Marie goes the time to leave and the Ninja fight.
And I think that’s pretty much it besides some arrows
killing people and like some other.
– Yeah, I don’t need like a huge battles either
but it’s just so I feel like it was,
they built it up, the big war is coming
and then you can’t keep on saying that
and then be like, and then the war happened
and we’re not there for that.
Well I want the pitch battle
just because I want to know how it works
because now you got all these samurai.
exactly.
– Big numbers of samurai here,
like bigger than any battle that would happen
in Europe at the time.
We’re talking, you know, 50,000s on top of each other.
So I want to see how that fight turns out.
– And then the last thing I would say,
and I think if they were ridden today,
this would have to be ridden.
I would have just done five characters
from their perspective.
So I would have just done Torinaga
so like the perspective of a leader, Black Thorn,
fish out of water, Mariko,
the like woman and like her able ability
to like kind of almost translate everything
that’s going on.
Omi, the rising of like a star through the ranks,
what he’s seeing, what he’s,
some of that’s lower on the tone,
pull, but like, you know, seeing that.
And then Rodriguez are a priest
so you get like the religious aspect.
But it’s like the five main themes.
And I really think they just kept it within those
and then you understand their voice.
So you like getting this head of each of these people
and if we see Torinaga earlier and Mariko earlier
’cause there’s such good characters,
I think that would have been a much better way to do it
’cause then you think you’d get much easier
or a full picture of everything versus like,
we can do like a random head of certain people
and I’m like, I don’t care about this person that much.
But like these five people, I think were the best characters
and they would have told you everyone’s story.
did you like Murah finding out at the end
that Murah who’s like the village leader under Omi?
He was the one who was Torinaga’s spy in Angero
was like Murah who’s a peasant,
but he’s a Christian peasant or whatever the case is.
But it turns out like, you know,
Torinaga says at the end that,
oh like what would they think if they had realized
that Murah was actually a samurai that I planted
in the village like 35 years ago?
And I think he was like, I think he would fart,
which I always love how they like say,
you know, someone would fart is like, be surprised.
But it was just, I thought that was super cool
because he’s just like this village guy,
you know, peasant village man,
who the whole time we’re thinking is with the Christian Dimeos
and he’s gonna like secretly be smuggling guns
’cause that’s what like Yabu wanted
or the Christians wanted like, oh,
they’re gonna be smuggling guns
and they’re gonna rise up against their leaged lords
but actually more of the whole time it’s like,
no, I was a samurai who was sent on this discreet mission
35 years ago to infiltrate this village
and have been pretending since then.
So it’s like, oh fuck, this is cool.
Torinaga really had it all figured out.
So I really like that.
My last hate, it’s so sorry.
And honestly, I thought there was a perfect amount
of so sorry’s and please excuse me’s.
But maybe I just got used to it because for me,
audio books are like green eggs and ham.
I would eat them in a boat, I’d eat them with a goat,
I’d eat them in the rain, I’d be in a train,
you know, I’d eat them at the Foxon House and a mouse
and I’d eat them here and anywhere,
I’d eat them everywhere.
That’s how I deal with audio books is like,
I always find myself listening to them,
whether I’m outside working in the yard
or just making dinner or whatever the case is.
And one of my favorite places to enjoy an audio book
is while I’m taking a shower because, you know,
the acoustics are right, you really get into the story.
– I’ve never done that.
– Yeah, I got a little JBL clip, you know,
maybe a sponsor in the future.
But and you just, you hang that on the shower door
or whatever and you listen to it for 15 minutes.
But the wife will over hear books from time to time.
She’ll comment because I’m playing them in the shower,
you know, she’s around.
And her only comment for this book was,
well, these characters sure do apologize a lot.
Like, she’s very like, did he just say so sorry?
Like 26 times?
All Right, That was my stock down.
I was like, they apologize way too much
and then apologies don’t mean anything.
Yeah, exactly.
It’s like, do they just start to not mean anything?
And I would honestly like to see the stats,
like I’m sure someone probably on Reddit
or something might have done this.
But it’s gotta be an extra like 20 pages of so sorry.
Like if you just took out all the so sorry’s,
it’s gotta be like 20 pages of actual writing.
I’m gonna give it a hate, but I thought it was all right.
But it was just funny from like a third person perspective.
And it was funny as I was watching the first episode.
I was like, waiting for it.
I was like, when the thing had to say so sorry
and they only said it once, I think.
– Yeah, I’ll do you could actually do that in a real way.
Well, obviously.
Yeah.
They like hand the pilot to FX and they’re like,
it just says so sorry, like 30 times.
And please excuse me.
One little question, I think we kind of addressed it,
but does Blackthorn leave Japan?
Do you think he leaves?
– I don’t think he does.
– Torinaga makes it clear that he doesn’t,
he’s not leaving.
He’s like, he’s not gonna.
– He’s not gonna, but I think eventually he just decides,
I’m gonna stay here.
I don’t wanna, it’s too long of a trip back.
It’s too hard.
I’m gonna just build a military here
and then eventually the Europeans will come over
and I’ll get a message out.
That’s what I think he’s doing.
‘Cause I think eventually he’s just gonna become Japanese fully.
– So you think his wife’s like morning
him being lost at sea, letting a candle every night
as he’s living like a king in Japan,
taking the people to the detainee every night.
– Yeah, that’s right.
Yeah, okay.
I mean, I know Torinaga doesn’t want him to leave,
but the prestige and honor of him going back to England
with like, I’m the first person of the vision of Japan’s,
like here’s these adversaries, here’s all this stuff I’ve learned.
He could actually become like a huge lord in England
for doing it.
And I feel like he misses culture eventually.
He’d kind of forget about all the shittiness.
And so I think he would go back.
And I think he would get his family
and bring them to Japan.
That’s what I’m talking about.
He’d be like, “Torinaga, this is gonna help you.”
He’d be like, “Torinaga is gonna help him.”
And he’d go back to England, get them a bunch of warships made,
like spend like two years, he’d be teaching his family
Japanese over that two years, like learning,
teaching them to like enjoy fish and just like,
clean up after themselves.
And then he took his family.
– You think he’s a good family man?
I think he actually hates his family, so I’m good.
– That’s the difference.
I think he’s gonna convince Torinaga
that let’s cut the middle man out and let’s get,
let’s ride.
Let’s about to get the military going here.
Let’s get a couple ships built.
Let’s got a fleet going.
Let’s got to create a blockade.
– He’s a little got in 60 seconds, little let’s ride.
Yes, exactly.
Nick Cage, I’m real quick.
– All right, Keith, we’ve talked about Shogun
for approximately like three hours and 30 minutes,
which is 0.1% of the total.
That looks…
would you recommend this book to someone
who has maybe only seen the show or hasn’t seen it at all?
Yeah, you gotta strap in for this one.
It’s kind of like a long flight.
If you were going to go into a flight
not knowing it is 10 hours, it might be tough,
but if you know it’s 10 hours, it’s doable
and I think it’s worth your while
to get to that place you wanna go.
You know, and that’s, that’s, that’s a lot of great analogy.
Nice to be done.
– Question, after going on a 16 hour flight, yeah.
I really liked it.
Could it have been 30 hours?
Yeah, definitely could have been, could have been 25 probably,
but I did, that’s a big…
did you feel like It lagged in any places though
and you’re like, oh my God, get through this?
No, not necessarily.
I do think it became a history book in some instances
where it became a little bit repetitive too,
where you’re like, I’m locked in on the culture now,
you don’t either like drill at home anymore,
but I definitely felt like eventually
it just became kind of part of my day.
I was like, oh yeah, I gotta turn this on.
It’s just like, you know, in the background of my head almost.
And for some of the explanations is like,
you know, a lot of the time is like explaining
what like black dorm is eating.
It’s like, oh, it’s eating the fish the way he likes it now.
Like charcoal or fire with some vinegar and rice
and this, that, the other thing.
But it almost brings you back into the story.
You know, it’s like, okay, now you’re like the details,
you don’t get like lost in the necessarily.
You just like now visualizing part of the story.
Like it has…
like some of my favorite parts of Harry Potter
are when they’re not moving the story forward,
they’re just like in class.
– It’s just living in the wizarding world.
– Yeah, that’s what’s really cool to me.
So I get that.
– I’d obviously recommend it.
I mean, where’s this going at the top?
– It’s one of my favorite books of all time.
I think actually I like it less than I did in my memory
but I also like put that on a pedestal in my memory.
It’d be tough to put it at top 10.
I also hadn’t read, read rising at that point,
which is just such a fucking great book.
So, and I think that’s both of our number ones.
It’ll probably slide into two for me.
I don’t think it’ll top red rising.
And I’m not necessarily, so this is what it’s tough to do
with top 10 because I’m not necessarily saying that
red rising is a better book because I’m a huge history buff.
I love that stuff.
I also just like really fun stories
and this covered both of those things.
It’s just that red rising for it being like just a super fun
kids story kind of, but then also not like for kids
’cause there’s some fucked up shit that happens in those books.
– I don’t think it’s a YA book.
– Yeah, no, it’s an adult book that’s like marketed for YA,
which is fucked up.
Yeah, so this is just, it’s almost like a different beast,
but with that, I think in terms of the amount of time
it takes to read this one, yeah, exact.
The pound for minute, you know,
the amount of pound of flesh I’m taking per minute
out of that, I’m just, I’m gonna stick with the red as I,
but it goes for number two.
Are we planning on doing the show for an episode?
I think We should.
Yeah, I think so too.
So I don’t wanna talk too much about it,
but I will say I am a little upset.
I read the book so close to watching the show.
Oh really?
– Yeah, because I’m more nitpicky and also because I just
invested 50 hours of my life to this book.
I like want it to hit perfectly.
It’s a really good show.
There’s no question about it.
It’s just I’m having a tough time fully investing in it without–
– There’s a people that didn’t read the book,
probably it’s like we gotta do this stuff.
– I don’t even know if it is because it’s also all in Japanese.
– It’s all subtitles.
– Yeah, there’s very little English, which is awesome.
I’m such a dick too.
I’m watching with Caroline and she’s having a tension
and I’m like, oh actually he’d probably be speaking Dutch here.
Why am I saying that?
Jesus.
– I’m such a fucking idiot.
I hate myself sometimes.
I’m like, oh, a lead is piece of shit here,
but I will say it is beautiful.
Everything about it is beautiful.
Seeing the samurai in armor and stuff like that,
things that I have trouble imagining was so cool to see.
And just like Angerot itself,
which is like this little wooded village,
and I’m thinking about it so much differently.
It was just, it was fun.
So I think we’re gonna have a good time chatting about it.
I think I need to just kind of like forget about the book
and just watch the show and enjoy it.
All right.
All Right, Well Keith, We did show God.
I’m really proud of us.
I’m really proud of you.
Thanks for sticking with me on this journey.
You know, it’s a long one.
– I’m always proud of you.
But we got coming up next.
Next We got Slotterhouse5 by Kurt Vonnegut.
That’s a quick one.
So we needed a little decompress,
a little, something quick.
And then after that, we got The Blade itself
by Joe Abercambi.
Got a couple of good ones slated up here.
And so, hope you’ll be all join us.
– Yeah, so it’ll be fun.
We’ll do a little English class high school book,
five hours, something like that,
and then back into some Joe Abercambi.
All right, Keith, well, it has been fun.
If people don’t like this, Shikantika and I,
no, just kidding, I love the anyways.
I’ll catch you for Slotterhouse5.
All righty.
Sayonara.
Nope, Sayonara.
Bye.