Mad Mabel – Sally Hepworth – Episode 146

The Buddies head down under for Sally Hepworth’s darkly compelling “Mad Mabel”. The Buddies had a lot of questions after reading the newly released mystery/dark-comedy. Namely: How old does a child need to be to take accountability for their actions? What makes a good/bad neighbor, and what is the definition of ‘dark humor’. Find out the answers to all of this and more on this weeks podcast. So, pack your umbrella and some tissues, we guarantee you’ll be Mad/you are Mad if you miss this one.

Transcript for SEO Purposes 🙂

All right, welcome to Book Up.
I’m Dylan here with my bosom buddy, Keith. What’s up?
I’m here with Dylan, aka Demon, aka Oloss, because it’s easier to say than that’s my favorite frozen characters.
Oh, look at us. We’re like, “cess and mess.”
Finishing each other’s– this is where you’re supposed to know.
All right, here’s the buddy book, I hope we get out the best others.
And this week we’ll be discussing Sally Hamper’s latest novel, “Mad Mabel.”
If you’d like to welcome it to Book Up, first to read it,
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Please, and thanks.
Keith Mad Mabel, it’s a crime story about the two kinds of people,
no one ever expects to be murderous, little girl, little ladies.
But is it really about that?
Stick around here to hear our thoughts.
437 on Goodreads, 225,000 ratings.
Like, this thing’s only been out for eight months or something like that.
I guess a little bit more, 10 months.
But yeah, pretty wild.
I definitely haven’t read anything else.
First, you got like nine novels.
And I don’t even know if we’ve done any Australian writers.
I don’t think we’ve done a lot of international there than British.
Yeah, and I guess she said in like her acknowledgements,
which I listened to, that were quite nice.
She was talking about how she wanted to keep a bunch of the Aussie Lingo in there.
And you know, maybe had a little bit of pushback from publishers or editors or whatnot,
but she kept it.
And I just love, give me all the Aussie Lingo.
Like, have this thing so Aussie Lingo that I’m not sure
that I know what’s happening.
100% agree.
Yeah, when I went there, I kept on getting tripped up when they would say,
what is it?
It’s not how you’re doing.
It’s how you’re going.
I think they say.
So they’re like, hey, how are you going?
I’m like, going to good.
I couldn’t think of how to respond to it every time.
I’m so goddamnit.
Yeah, that’s kind of like whenever, both from the East Coast,
whenever we say we’re all set, which is like, yeah,
do you want some more guacamole?
It’s like, no, I’m all set.
In other parts of the country, people have no idea what that means.
Oh really.
At least I’ve experienced it a few times where someone’s like,
does does that mean you are more like, what?
All set.
Let’s get this stuff up stock down for Mad Mabel Keith stock up what he got now.
Accountability stock up.
I mean, I’ve said it once.
I’ve said it a million times, demon.
I don’t think we should treat kids differently than we treat adults.
Yeah, you’re big.
It’s not as baby talk.
None of this, you know, treating them like they’re,
you know, you know, they get our kids gloves literally, you know, with them.
Sock them, boppers.
And Melbourne, Melbourne, Melbourne, Australia.
They take this to heart.
Yeah, you’re three years old.
Yeah, you can barely walk.
You can barely talk.
You can’t make core memories, whatever.
Nothing excuses.
We got three-year-old LC.
She should know better.
Polio is super contagious.
You know, you should know that, right?
Yeah.
So it’s one or two options, demon.
She’s either a malicious killer who did it on purpose.
That’s.
Or she’s a complete idiot.
And we all know she’s not idiot.
She’s smart, you know?
So, I mean, this whole community blaming a three-year-old and not the parents,
it’s completely right.
It’s the right response.
And can we, can we address a little bit of the elephant in the room, though?
But with the, with the blaming of all the three-year-old, what about Kitty?
Yeah, exactly.
She not take any accountability in this?
You know, you’re going to walk into the room.
You’re not walk out.
And someone has polio?
Like, Kitty, grow up, walk yourself out of the room, or crawl out of the room.
What do you have to do?
Like, that’s the only thing I’m a little upset about is that there’s no accountability
from Kitty’s perspective.
Other than that, you know?
She’s dumb.
Completely outflying all of this.
But, uh, in all seriousness, yeah, I didn’t really understand that whole thing.
All right, does everyone in the whole society just like,
complete idiots?
I don’t know to get, like, how that would work?
And it’s not just, I mean, it is the whole society, but even
ness, sass rather, at one point, she’s like, yeah, your dad really, really loved Kitty,
just like your mom, all this stuff.
But I always loved you way more.
I knew you were going to be way better.
I’m like, Kitty’s 12 months old.
What are you facing that often?
She can barely as a personality.
Like, what are you talking about?
So everyone there, apparently, is, and I was thinking, like, do they count?
Like, you know, I think in China, when you’re born, you’re one-years-old.
I was like, oh, yeah, they may be like a year older.
Like, she’s actually two.
Is that the only thing I can think of that would make sense?
Even then, though, I don’t know.
What age do you think they have to get to before it’s not all the parents involved?
In terms of giving someone a contagious disease?
I feel like, yeah, that’s like 18.
Yeah, what are we talking about?
Just in general, like, the percentages start to swing.
If a three-year-old touches a stove, that’s 100% on the parents, right?
But if an eight-year-old touches a stove, you’re like,
yeah, come on, you know.
Oh, you know that this boy.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you’re saying I’m saying like the scale,
it starts to move as you get older.
Yeah, I think it depends on how egregious the thing is.
Like, a virus or whatever the thing is,
disease you can’t see that, you know.
It’s also, she’s on the porch.
They just put their kids.
So this is, we’re talking, I think, late 40s, early 50s.
I think we’re talking like early 50s here.
And they were talking about how they just would put the kids that had polio,
like, on the patio.
Which, in my mind, I’m thinking of a house that has kind of like a small porch
that’s really just for collecting Amazon packages.
And they’re just putting the kids out there to be like,
okay, live out here for a couple of weeks until this polio thing either kills you
or you get over it.
Because you’re not going to affect anyone else.
So that was a little bit weird.
So I guess if we’re talking hot stove,
I think probably like five, you know,
five’s probably the point where you should know better in the sense of,
you know, like even my daughter’s almost two.
And whenever she walks by the stove, I’m like hot.
And she goes, hot.
And I’m like, yes, hot.
So she understands that that’s a thing.
Would she still do it?
Yes, absolutely.
At the same time, who knows?
Just recently had some time with some family.
And my brother, law who’s 44 or, you know, definitely past that age,
we’re both putting things in the oven.
The oven doors open.
It’s 450 degrees.
I go to put my sheet tray in the oven and he just closes the door.
Like just straight up closes the door on my hand.
It’s like, are you insane?
So yeah, I think it’s younger than 44,
but probably older than three,
which is the age maple is when her dad takes it upon himself to blame her for Kitty’s death.
And, and pretty much starts that ball rolling to blame her for literally everything else.
And you briefly mentioned it, but the exact quote from Cess is,
to be perfectly honest, she was far less interesting than you.
Yeah, she didn’t even talk.
It was kind of like she was terrible.
It was her deal.
Like she shattered her pants and couldn’t speak in, not in full sentences.
She couldn’t even put two words together.
She was just a loser.
Imagine you go and meet someone.
She just hammered all the time it sounds like.
Like barely, it was not locked, could barely do anything.
It’s like how Jerry Seinfeld would act towards a baby, you know,
is pretty much how Cess is acting towards this one year old.
Yeah, she’s like good riddance.
I’m glad she’s dead.
She’s way less interesting than you.
Yeah.
Well, I was going to say like the, uh,
I don’t even blame the dad because the dad is just an evil character.
So the evil character is supposed to be evil,
but everyone in the town being like,
I can’t play if she killed her, her sister.
Yeah.
What are, what are wrong with you people?
Well, I wanted to kind of talk about this in general before I get into my stock up,
because it’s, that’s so absurd.
But it’s, and the book is a lot about the court of public opinion and just how,
the kids are kind of terrible, you know, um, probably it’s knocked out, but
and they’ll believe anything, you know, it’s like if there’s a story that’s circulating,
people will just believe it.
So it’s like, oh, did you hear that she killed her sister when she was three?
One person says it and it just spreads like wildfire.
I remember in high school, there was some girl in high school,
she’s like a few years older than me,
but somehow it like made the rounds that she had had an abortion because she had a scar on her
stomach, which now as an older person with a brain clearly realizes that is like an appendectomy
scar or something like that.
And that is not how abortions work whatsoever.
But because this storm happens in these places where people just pass things on and people
believe them, and we’re all idiots when we’re 12 and we kind of want to put people down, you know,
kids are so group-orientated and they want to always be, there needs to be a them, you know,
if it’s us as your group of friends or the people you trust, there has to be a them.
And we always pick someone and it’s terrible and it shouldn’t happen like this, but that’s how it is.
And someone decided that this girl was a them and she because of that she was like labeled as a
harlot because she had this abortion that she obviously never had because she had a freaking scar
on her stomach. So I thought about that when I was reading this book because one of how
great just that is that we would just make that up and ever and believe it. And two,
that it just happened to Mabel over and over and over and over again.
It’s tough being a kid and especially, I mean, we don’t know, we’re both guys, but I can imagine
being a girl and a kid, especially like in puberty times as way harder.
Which takes me to my first stock up, fuck around and find out, stock up.
Billy, he fucked around and he found out. We don’t even know what happened to Billy, right?
He just hit his head somehow walking down the stairs at the beach. No one did anything to him.
I mean, I was hoping again, this is what I really wanted to book the Tardew 2.
Is that her imaginary friend would just go off and like do all these things that she could know
she was happening, but that’s okay. That’s why I’m hoping for, but I don’t think you can really root
for Elsie at the end if that’s the case, but that would be dark and humerus. And I think that would
be great. That would be a great way for this book to turn instead. It was just sad and emotional.
Have any of those books, but go. Yeah, no, I was it’s interesting you brought that up because
it’s something that I thought as well. When, you know, Daphne’s revealed in one, I was like,
holy smokes, I wonder if it was this, there was a darker book than it had been the whole time.
And she was actually having psychotic breaks and Daphne was just going around to people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because a lot of, you know, her mom, she just shoved her out the window.
Because even her mom, I mean, her mom’s not on the fuck around and find out list. Billy is of course,
but if her mom was on the fuck around and find out list, yeah, I was going to say wouldn’t be that
crazy. Her mom said, what did you see? She said, I saw some thrusting. And the next thing you know,
she hits her in the face and then nose dives out the window. So yeah, she could be on the
fuck around to find out list. Mr. Lucas clearly one pedophile, two terrible human being uses her,
which murder was it her dad’s her mom’s her mom’s yeah and uses that to like getting close to her.
He fucked around and found out he’s dead. And actually that one probably, oh no,
isn’t Mabel’s fault because even though she did the, this she used her compass to like
stab his tire, his girlfriend was already going to kill him. She just then used that as an alibi.
Mabel’s dad, he really fucked around and he found out he fucked around for years.
And then eventually he found out and she killed him in a very enjoyable way like stabbed him with
a umbrella to death. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, very league of extraordinary gentleman. I appreciate it.
So yeah, I guess if you’re around Mabel and you fuck around, you’re going to find out and now we
have earned our explicit writing on Spotify and Apple. What else did you have for stock up?
Being a good neighbor, stock up. I do think it was kind of funny while we’re reading and we’re like
getting interested, Joan. I’m like, fuck this Joan. She’s the worst. She’s the absolute worst person
ever. What a terrible neighbor. But then you like take a step back. If you’re a neighbor and you’re
like, oh yeah, the person that just moved in next door is a mass murder and she had imaginary friends
that she talks to and oh, we need to protect everyone in this little community. We have a little girl
here. We have, like, you know, I need help, you know, make sure people are aware that there’s a
crazy person here. And so she’s got to do that. And then she finds out that she’s actually not that
crazy and she’s actually probably a pretty good person. And then she apologizes, oh, she’s kind of a
good person. Joan gets a lot of hate, but she’s fine. And then she’s like bragging about her nephew,
is actually a good lawyer. Like he comes in and helps out. So like, you know, most of those
neighbors that are talking about their, their kids and all these things, none of that helps you.
You’re like, yeah, like Timmy ran really fast with the me like, I don’t give a shit. That’s not
going to help me unless Timmy’s like, you know, running down and saving me for something. No, I know
who gives about a speed, but she’s talking about some a lawyer and then they won’t behold that lawyer
comes and helps them. So that was a good brag. It was useful. So yeah, I’m on team Joan after
it by the end of there. So I was like, you know what? But she’s actually a good person. So being a good
neighbor, stuck up. Yeah, Joan has a good story, has a good story arc. And she’s not the only good
neighbor which we can get into the other ones. But I enjoyed that Joan is so hateable at the beginning.
She’s the classic neighbor from every neighborhood movie or whatnot that’s just always
ease dropping and putting her nose in places they shouldn’t be. But yeah, if you think about it from
her perspective, even if you’re a little nosy, sure is the youngest killer in Australia’s history
that moved in and extort you. And now someone’s dead on your street. So yeah, you have a, you have a
reservoir. But then the second she goes human shield against those like pita protesters or whoever
those random people were shooting blood out of square guns. And Mabel that is and puts
Persephone behind her. Joan’s like, oh, maybe, you know, everything that she’s done has been pretty
chill and she just did this, but just super chill. So maybe she’s not that bad a person. And then
instead of just being like the mea culpa, she goes hard the other way and helps her out and
and whatnot. So so yeah, great stuff. In terms of other neighbors though, Peter obviously turns out
to be her son, spoiler alert. Seemed like a good guy for the most part helped out when he was
needed. He was kind of like the man around town. I in my head thought Peter was in Joan were both
a lot older. I thought they were Mabel’s age, but clearly, I mean, they’re still like six years old.
Yeah, they’re still older, but yeah, if she’s 81 and he’s 15 years younger than her. So 65 is not like
elderly. All right. Jeez. But you know, what I’m saying. And I guess the only one that was a tough
one to me besides the neighbor that died who just has a happy dog and no one likes that is Roxanne.
Like is Roxanne a good neighbor? What’s her deal? Her story is just to introduce another way that
men are terrible essentially. It’s like, oh yeah, there’s Roxanne. Yeah, she has a terrible, terrible
husband slash. Yeah, it’s like a kindergarten cops type situation going on there. Yeah, that’s
pretty much it and just to make it the story even sadder to end. That’s that’s her that’s her
better job. Yeah, I thought there were like no guns in Australia. That was the big thing. Yeah, that’s
not terrible. And no one has any guns. Well, this guy’s Italian. Oh, check what they’re asking.
No, it was more about Roxanne. They said she had gentlemen callers at all hours of the night or
whatnot. And hey, I’m not here to yuck anyone’s yummy for Roxanne wants to get laid and whatnot,
like good for her. But she does have a seven year old kid at home. So I thought that was more of like
the rumor mail saying that was the real. The LC was spreading that or at least LC. I mean, LC is
not up at 1 a.m. So I don’t really know unless she is, but I thought that was more the rumor mail
and she’s like, oh, she’s, you know, that’s what’s been happening. What she’s like, funny, because I’m
like, LC, aren’t you the person that was getting accused of these things when she’d be like the last
one, you know, throwing stones. Yeah, yeah, interesting. I didn’t take it that way. I thought it was like
that was actually happening, but if that is the case, then my bet I’m not here to spread rumors
because, you know, no, no one likes that. But leaving her kid at home, even though I know she’s kind
of, she needs a night time, she needs a job, pays a lot more. I get all that. And the setters,
too expensive overnight. I just couldn’t imagine leaving a seven year old and not telling them,
like they have no idea. Yeah. Or even just telling a couple of neighbors just a check out. It goes
back to your ear. Yeah, you’re seven. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Go back to sleep. Let’s see if you
can answer the door and fight off that 30 old man that’s at the door. Whatever. Yeah, you wake up
and I’m not home. Who cares? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something.
Figure it out. Go get yourself a glass of water. Yeah. That’s a good point. We got to treat those
kids like adults. So maybe your exam is right. She just wanted to get to grow up a little faster.
My next stock up is Jonas Salk. Stock up. I’ve heard about polio, obviously, but I didn’t really
necessarily realize that it was this giant epidemic. I’ve seen the pictures of like, oh, the iron kids
and the iron lungs and I knew FDR had it. But polio is just pretty wow. It’s contagious. You know,
it attacks the nervous system causing paralysis or death. And I guess he, like Jonas Salk introduced
the vaccine in 55, but it was killing or paralyzing over half a million people a year before that,
which is wild to me. I was up at my mom’s lake, like, I don’t know, maybe 10 years ago or something.
And I got bit by leech, which is supposedly the only time that’s happened in that lake. And
because of it, I got a staff infection. And I went to the clinic there. And the doctor walks in
and gone like crutches or something like that. And he said, oh, yeah, it’s pretty,
like, this nobody deals staff infection. Like, staff lives on your skin will give you some antibiotics
and you’ll be fine. And he was like, good thing we got antibiotics, right? And I was like, yeah, sure,
great, great thing. He’s like, because in my day, we had polio and there was nothing to do it. And
that’s why I’m in these crutches. I was like, wait, what? And it was like, wait, how old was he? He’s like
in his 50s or 60s, something. But yeah, I guess he somehow got polio. And imagine just like your
kid, everything’s chill. The next thing you know, your nervous system shuts your legs off. Yeah,
it’s just it’s great. You know, you’re thinking we just lived through COVID and you know, that I’m,
I’m not downplaying it. It was wild for a lot of people that had terrible times. But like a lot of us
have had COVID and it was like a cold and you get away with, but polio, although society looks like
a lot of people that had polio either had no symptoms or it was fine, but a lot of people
your body just decides, no, no thanks, no moss and you’re dead. Yeah, crazy. I think pre
1940 though, you just assumed the more like it’s like a one in five. Yeah, it doesn’t make it to like
18. Yeah, you’re just like, uh, they probably won’t make it. You know, it’s just like one in five. I
also always parking back to a freakonomics book where they, the way they learned the germs were is
that the mortality rates of people delivering babies in hospitals was significantly higher than it
was in just home births. They’re like, why is that there’s got to be something going on? And they
went into the doctors and the doctors would go to the, the morgue work on dead bodies and then
come up and deliver babies and they’re like, I don’t understand what constantly got me to cause
like this. And so they didn’t know that germs were a thing and then they eventually they’re like,
oh, yeah. So there you go. There’s, there’s people are idiots. So maybe we have to change the,
the hot stove number to, yeah, yeah, you’ve been going to the morgue, then delivering a baby. Oh,
my god. That’s terrible. Well, if you, if you watch the, you know, there’s a Netflix series too on,
forget which present it was, but one of the presents, like, got assassinated and turns out, like,
you got shot and then they were trying to get the fun to pull it out. And the reason he died is
from infection, not because the, the bowl was fine. It wouldn’t have mattered. Yeah. So, yeah,
it’s just because they were so bad with like, they didn’t wash their hands. They didn’t do all these
things. You’re supposed to do. And there’s, there’s like, drilling into his back to find the
bowl. Like, ah, it’s not there. And they’d be like, whatever. And then let them, you know, rest there.
And be like, let me squeeze some human feces between my fingers. They all get back in there. Yeah. Yeah,
yeah. Exactly. Crazy. Yeah. Holy August does transfer from human feces, which I didn’t know. But in
the way that poops kind of everywhere, you know, which is as disgusting as that sounds, you know,
people don’t wash their hands and they touch something or yeah. So it’s like surface contact and whatnot.
But blaming Mabel, who’s on the porch and is locked out on the porch and then her one-year-old
sister somehow gets out there, which is still unclear is very confusing at the same time though. She is
three. So if she can unlock it from her side, it’d be hard for that kid not to do it because she doesn’t
even understand what’s going on. I don’t know. It’s wild. It’s just wild to blame a kid. My last one is
probably the most important one, but it’s in kind of what the book’s all about, but stock up friendship,
you know, it has to be whether it’s real or imaginary. It’s it’s kind of a big deal. So yeah, we’re
talking about how you know, Mabel obviously is has this terrible childhood. I really know one to turn
to. So she’s she’s bookish. I couldn’t imagine not having a safe space with your parents. And I guess
maybe another stock up would be having siblings, even I mean, assuming you don’t murder them by giving
them polio, but you know, because there’s I couldn’t imagine just not having anybody to turn to. And the idea
that she has all this trauma and then because of this trauma creates a imaginary friend like Harvey
in that 1940s movie or whatever it was made, you know, uses that because she’s so into and of green
gables and to create Daphne who was her friend in kindergarten but then moved away. So she kind of
just like brings her back to life. It makes a lot of sense to me, although I mean, we’ll get into it
later, but it’s probably going to hurt you in the long run if you’re trying to continue to
get friends. She got her off only five years in prison or mental hospital. Yeah, that’s for sure.
But I’m just saying if you’re trying to get some friends and you’re like chatting, chatting with
yourself by the locker, people are like, no, that’s the other reasons. Like people maybe people
work calling her mad Mabel because of all this crazy stuff that happened. Maybe they’re calling
her mad Mabel because she is a little mad in the sense that she has this imaginary friend that she
somehow thinks other people can see and interact with to some degree. Although all of her neighbors
like her and she’s still she still has a imaginary friend then, you know, she’s like still talking
with her all day. I don’t understand why her neighbors like her. She just mean to everyone and they’re
like everyone loves you here. It’s like, right? Yeah, she’s like nagging everyone. It was great.
That’s people love that. Yeah, I guess they were into it. What about stockdowns?
Quick one on the fight club stockdown just because you mentioned it. Fight clubs like that. But
that’s mainly because her imaginary friend really didn’t wasn’t about that life. Didn’t
help with the whole fuck around. Find out like you mentioned earlier. I was hoping that she was
kind of going to come out and sort of murdering people. But I also wanted to ask you when did you
know? I didn’t know if it was supposed to be pretty obvious, but I thought it was I knew within
like the first quarter of the book that was a imaginary friend. Did you get that sense right away?
Good for you. I’m also always looking for it just to let you know. I think I’ve talked about this
multiple times. I’m pretty sure that’s a person’s imaginary. Oh yeah. Never imagined. Yeah, it’s like
you’ve been sick sensed. So you’re just like always. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, it was one of my
stockdowns was reading the same book at the same time as just a significant other was a stockdown
because we were both listening to it on our car ride back from Michigan and separately though.
A different, a different, you know, different. I was listening to it on my headphones. She was
doing her headphones and my daughter was watching Seinfeld. That was pretty much how her how her
ride back went. Yeah, we were watching Seinfeld actually yesterday morning and she’s like having a
bottle and she’s like, “Ded, like what?” She points to the screen. She goes, “Creamer.” And I’ll
say, “Yeah, that is great, right. Good for you.” Yeah, she’s got it. She’s like, “Get it.” Yeah,
because she knows all the characters. She legitimately watched Seinfeld for 10 minutes this morning
and just stared at it and was so enthralled and then she picks up the clicker somehow. I’m like,
doing work. I don’t even know how she got to it, but she’s watching always sunny and she got to
always sunny and it’s the gang’s racist episode. They turned the bar into a gay bar. Yeah. She watched it
for a solid like five to 10 minutes of just sitting there walking, like actually just watched it.
Is that you got? Okay. Well, here we go. Hopefully you have a good sense of humor.
Good app. But yeah, they’re reading the same book at the same time as we should have together a problem
because about 20% through Caroline goes, “So, Daphne’s imaginary, right?” And I was like, “Oh, God,
dammit.” Yes. They did make it pretty obvious when the cops come to replace. She says, “Oh, like,
Daphne’s like right there in the corner or whatever.” And then he was down and pets the dog when he’s
like, “Oh, Daphne, he pets the dog.” So I’m like, “Oh, okay. She’s not actually there.” So that’s when I
knew I was like, “Well, I guess the thing that threw me off and kept me questioning it for a lot of it
was when she had sess a ness over to Daphne’s house or something and she was blue collar and she
lived in a kind of a rundown house or something. Didn’t that happen? When she was like, “Oh, this is
Daphne that I’ve been talking about and there was no one there.” And they’re like, “What the hell?” And
and her mind was like, “Oh, it’s because she talks with a lower-class drawl and so people always
are taking it back by that.” Or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I obviously wasn’t sure when Caroline
said that. I was like, “Oh, that makes a lot of sense.” But it was kind of interesting then reading
it from there on out because at that point I was then at every scene. I was watching how Sally
here are Sally Hempworth, the author, how she did it. I was kind of seeing a magic trick happen
in real time and she did it really well. Throughout every time there was some points where
Christos was like, “Oh, is Daphne your friend?” And she’s like, “Yeah, blah blah blah, this is the other thing
because she was supposedly right there.” But so it could be misconstrued that he was addressing that
person, but really he was just talking to Mabel about it. So overall I think it was really well done.
I don’t think the point, this was a big pushback on a lot of the like goodreads reviews was that,
Oh, so obvious that she was imaginary. I don’t think, you know, Sally’s out here trying to make it seem
like this is a huge reveal at the end. You know, it was like, “Oh, okay, this is becoming clearer and
clearer throughout the book that she’s not real.” And then it’s like, “Hum.” Like I said, I thought it was,
you were supposed to know and like reader was supposed to know almost, that’s what I thought,
because like she kind of does give it away right away. I was like, “Oh, okay, I think it’s fine.”
Yeah, and I think either way is either way is good, but acting like, and it’s maybe because people
are obsessed with fricking twists and turns, like we talked about at Nazum, but it doesn’t have to
be this huge reveal twist. It’s just like, “Oh, okay, if you didn’t know at that point, it’s like
that’s cool.” And if you did the whole time, then you got to enjoy the ride of how was we’ve did
and seeing that happen in real time. So, yeah, I kind of knew at the like 20% mark, I was holding on
to a potential that it wasn’t, and then about like halfway through, I was thinking, is definitely the
one murdering all these people. Yeah, which would have been pretty crazy. My first stockdown is the Salem
which trials stockdown. I mean, there is no way Mabel survives on the North Shore match, just Massachusetts
in the late 1600s, right? There’s just no way. There are way too many deaths and mammings in her
presence. No, it’s the deaths and mammings that happen while she’s there to not be considered a
witch. Like Kitty, her mom, Mr. Lucas, Billy Harris, Sess, her dad, Ashon, and then ultimately,
herself. So, it’s like, maybe after Billy, it’s like, she’s 14 and she’s already been in the presence
of, this is her fourth death. And even though Mr. Lucas, she wasn’t there for it, she was there right
before it. So, yeah, she’d probably get burned at the stake, but kind of like we said before,
the court of public opinion is just so cruel. Her mom dying and no one being there to
console her or just have her ear, you know, just to spend time with her is so messed up. And instead of
getting twisted into, did she kill her mom? Did she then, because she killed her sister, I heard, is,
it’s just messed up. And, yeah, I mean, it makes her the person she is obviously and creates
Daphne. And she seems pretty well adjusted as a, after, you know, she gets out for how terrible her
life was. You don’t really know what happens, right? She goes and helps Ness as a librarian
or something along those lines. But I assume that she had a fairly lonely life
until she came to the realization in her 80s that she was loved, you know? So, yeah, I can’t
imagine the rest of her life was, was very good. She obviously has a great, she’s a good hang.
She’s clearly a good hang when we have whatever the two, Adnan and Lillier, whoever the people were,
that that came to her, the interviewer is like, she’s got a great sense of humor and she’s a good
person to talk to. But no one knows that because no one gave her a chance except for Christos,
which we don’t really even know what happened to him. So, lingering question there.
Did you have any other stockdowns? I mentioned a little bit, but dark humor is stockdown.
This book is categorized as darkly humorous crime mystery. So, I think that I think in the vein of
psych or the third, there’s a murder club if you’ve seen that Netflix movie/book or only murders in
the building. You know, like the kind of like, yeah, someone died, but it’s a funny, it’s cutesy,
you know? There’s gonna be some humor around it, like lighthearted type, you know, crime mystery.
Yeah. That’s what I was thinking. And dark humor to me when people, I think we’ve read a few of
these books that are there. They call them dark humor. It seems like in books, dark humor is,
okay, someone being sassy with a terrible, terrible backstory and an awful childhood and all these
things that are happening. It’s like, yeah, it’s dark. And then there’s some a slight bit of humor at it.
It’s like, oh, because I think, I think dark humor, I think, it’s always sunny or
sign-filled. That’s my interpretation of what dark humor is. I think the perfect scene,
I always think of it for a sign-fell, like what dark humor is is it’s a Jerry and Elaine
and George at the diner and their, someone comes up with a, a child who was like adopted parents,
so you know, got killed all these things. We want to send you to France and they’re telling this
whole story about like the parents and everything like that. And Elaine starts crying and is like, oh,
my god, that’s so crazy. And she’s using tissues like what, like, rise and then she hands a,
or an African rather and she hands a napkin to Jerry assuming he’s crying and Jerry just uses
it a wipe his mouth off because he doesn’t give a shit at all. Doesn’t care. That’s dark humor.
Is that the one with George is like the big brother program and George hasn’t sent the letter,
fastened, sent the letter from France? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that’s what it is. Like, it’s like not
caring at all about other people or anything. Like, not being a part of society, what I think dark humor is.
Or just, that is like, yeah, what Larry David is, is just that kind of person where there’s not a lot of empathy.
Selfish, like, yeah, exactly. This is like, okay, you want to hear about literally the worst childhood of
all time and though, you know, how terrible it could possibly be and be super depressed. And then
the woman’s witty. It’s like that. She should be way more fucked up than just saying some, you know,
necks like you mentioned to our neighbors. Like, that’s not really, you know, a big deal in my mind.
But anyways, I think it’s just mislabeled, I think, as other book was in my mind. Yeah, I could,
I could see that definitely. It was dark. And there was humor, for sure. Like, maybe,
people’s a riot, you know, as, as LC, mostly. And the, like, the relationship with her and Persephone
is almost like an odd couple type relationship. So it has fun moments. And the banter that happens
pretty much in the now time, there’s not a lot of funny in the before four time, but in the now time,
the banter is great. It’s really well written dialogue. But yeah, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t necessarily
consider it dark humor, although I don’t, I don’t really like what I’m trying to think, because what I
equated it to, it reminded me a lot of anxious people. Yeah. And well, I think it was closer to the
second one, the, anxious people, I think was actually a little bit, was actually somewhat lighthearted.
Yeah, the person’s robbing this place, but it’s, you know, there’s all these funny stories along the way.
And it’s like not the, the, the, you never had at any point during the robbery and being like, oh my god,
kids are, yeah, yeah, you know, something, you know, I’m saying where it’s always light the whole time.
This one is 90% of the book is, holy shit, you know, maybe you feel things, which I don’t want to do, you know.
Yeah. More than before times though, than in the later ones, except for maybe at the end when,
when I’ll see sacrifices yourself for Persephone and then the whole Peter reveal. A couple,
a couple more stock downs. The one we’ve already kind of done was like, stock down to kids, especially
those in the, in the puberty stage, you know, they pick on Christos for being like, they’re like the
Masuka monster or something, and it’s like kids have to come up with the stupidest things to say.
Like I said, try to do like the us, us them thing. But, you know, it does also say something that when
they start picking on Mabel at the bonfire, and she come claps back by picking on them, it’s like,
oh, all of a sudden it’s like now everyone’s laughing and maybe a bit of banter can help. And I think
that might be tough for some kids, but, you know, it usually is helpful if you just kind of
give them something back. But my other stock down was living in a sheltered environment,
stocked down. So Mabel goes from kissing and not really knowing what homosexuality is,
and also not understanding what she’s seeing with her dad in Susan what’s her name,
to all of a sudden having sex at 15. Yeah, in like a week period. And there was no, you know,
sexual intercourse already like that with the teacher who she’d been with forever. Yeah,
which they got. Yeah, that was, obviously. But I was, I think, again, I think this goes back to
the dark part, but I think initially the kid was going to be the teachers and she was like, I’m not
doing that. That’s going to be fucking weird. So I’m going to do it where it’s the, the Greek dude who,
I guess, meets her one week and then they’re having literally sex immediately. So yeah, I think
it was probably more stretched out. I felt the same way when I was in my age, but I felt like it was
probably more stretched out, but at no point did they make it seem like they had like a childhood
kiss kind of thing. And it was like, okay, cool. Good for them. But then all of a sudden,
I’m having a baby. So, like, whoa, what? What? So, yeah, maybe you teach people about intercourse and
stuff like that as kids, then they’ll know how to do the right thing and stay protected and all
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I don’t necessarily have a favorite scene, but I would say any scene that has LC and Persephone
was an enjoyable time. It’s like she puts her bed next to you and she’s sleeping next to her like
snoring and you know they come over and she makes me and she can’t say that’s not kids are.
They can’t say no to it’s so hard to say be like oh I’m not gonna make you banana bread are you
crazy? And then she’s like well I do have a couple of right bananas maybe you know so yeah I just
thought every scene that had the two of them and the the back and forth. You really felt the
relationship. You know you really felt her growing on LC kind of like the the yapping dog to to some
degree but way more obviously with Persephone that you’ve felt by the time that she actually sacrificed
herself like oh she would definitely dive in front of a moving bust to save this little girl.
And she obviously sees a lot of or a bullet. I’m moving bullet what she does. Yeah but she
obviously like sees a lot of herself in Persephone but then she has friends although she then adopts
Daphne as her own as Daisy but what about you did you have favorite scene for this one?
She’s like when the dad got killed I was I was really hoping that there wasn’t one of those books where
the twist is like that that person that died was sass and then she got blamed for it. I was like
not there’s don’t fucking give me this bullshit where like oh it’s mad Mabel that did it and that’s
what she went to present for she never killed anyone then she beat him to death of the umbrella I was
like thank god that would have been so that would have sucked if she didn’t actually kill him so that
was nice that was a nice nice thing. Yeah I’m glad that guy’s not around total pieces shit Elliott what
kind of name is Elliott terrible Elliott Ness. Yeah I guess I’m into the prohibition smuggle those
booze over I’m good I’m good with it although untouchables is a phenomenal phenomenal film.
What about your favorite character? I like Sess and Ness I just really even though the
the one thing like you the quote you had already pulled up on the one year old not liking her but they
are the only real adults in the book they’re like you shouldn’t say this in front of your daughter
and you shouldn’t do these things and they’re not even parents and they’re just like yeah this is
obvious so it was nice to see some real human adults in the book which you know they weren’t shitty
so that was nice. Yeah the only other adults we had were at her parent sex parties and yeah
right which was weird they all sucked I like that Ness just hangs out in rips or Sess just hangs
out in rips heaters like a lot of that. Got a marble reds doesn’t hurt it. It was hanging out in
their slacks and button downs you know just making martinis on a casual tattoos they have to
bring out martinis and rippin heaters. Yeah just they’re great but those are our role models indeed
I liked we’d already talked about but I like the turn my Joan I didn’t I don’t think she’s
best character but I like the turn and I just think the best character really has to be LC you know her
her 81 year old self is someone to aspire to doesn’t give an absolute fuck speaks her mind swears
like a sailor. I mean that’s every person that’s when you get old or all gonna do that. I hope so
you know I don’t want to be the person’s like oh I got sweets you know I got some candies come
grandchildren come have candy and sit and watch Wheel of Fortune with me although that that
sounds pretty great too. I will say this is my loves but I I like the relationship with a
Dean a Dean walks in and she’s like you fat piece or shit and then she’s like oh you’re so whipped
you might might call you whipped cream you’re fat and you’re whipped I’m like holy shit yeah
that’s all we know about a Dean. The answer for coffee was sugar which is like a small
mountain which is normal and she’s like now I’m not gonna do it you gotta lay off the sugar fatty
it’s like whoa all right yeah I like I like the relationship between them her and the the two
YouTube YouTubers as well for me for loves like I said they reminded me a bit about anxious people
more just in the way that these friendships are happening you know the relationships that are
happening between the people who you you might not think necessarily would would get there
but another thing I liked was you know it was a story about something you know the crimes and what
not but but really it’s a story about something else and we always our least I always enjoy those
kind of things and and this being you know friendship specifically probably female friendship
and you know the importance of that and kind of how how that changes who you are and throughout
you know later in life when she has this this neighborhood of people even though it’s just her
in Daphne she actually does not realize that you know all these people are there to support her
and you know sometimes it has to be something crazy like your your neighbor overdosing on vitamins
to to make that clear to you that was the only dark humorous part yeah it’s like also is that clear
people he’s been getting vitamins and taking them nonstop they take they come every day it’s probably
he’s like RFK Jr.ing it over there so for Christ sake uh what else do you love my that was well written
interesting story you already mentioned it also it was a great narrator I think they’re just
well told I like the imaginary friend part I did like that it made me feel emotions which I didn’t
want to feel but you know I was getting some airplane you know up in the air that feelings yeah yeah
I was like oh I’m not flying right now what’s going on so didn’t didn’t care for that but
I also liked it so uh did you like the audio book because we both listen to the audio book yeah
though the audio book is great I do like that they did two different voices I think that was actually
really really um smart yeah I thought the audio book was fantastic I think both the narrators were
were really good and yeah I just thought overall it was a good story that had a lot to it
the story itself was interesting but also it got you feeling certain ways and you would
necessarily think that from basically like what you’d read on the inside slip cup yeah yeah
what about hates I think most my hits are gonna be more like lingering questions but yeah sure well
you can I got some a little bit of both so we can go into okay yeah I didn’t understand why
her dad killed ses what led to that like he wasn’t violent with his mom or her mom rather like so
why did he all of a sudden just killed like it just seemed like a little bit we don’t know that he
wasn’t violent with her right I thought uh else you said that he he was never violent with my mom but
he’s like oh like yeah like emotionally emotionally yeah yeah yeah which so it seemed like there
is should have been some impetus of like you hate skays or something you know I mean like where he’s
like gets so angry that he does she just came back and she’s dead oh I’m like what why like I don’t
get it and then where was where was Ness for that by the way I don’t understand why Ness wasn’t there
yeah so from the questions that I saw around this were that supposedly Ness was potentially out
looking for Mabel because Mabel like ran away and Ness went but but yeah I mean who knows on that part
I think for Elliot he also just hates a woman that has a voice ses was showing that she wasn’t
going to be a pushover like every other woman she was gonna speak her mind and she was gonna be
a roadblock for him and he just thinks of women as things that their objects you know the things
that you can do whatever the hell you all with and when he ran into Ness as the brick wall he
just snapped but yeah that would make more sense if he was like embarrassed in front of people or
something like that’s what I feel like it was should have been added in she embarrassed him in public
or did something where like a person like that can’t take that embarrassment especially from a woman
and it’s like all right fucking I’m killing him yeah well it was a cry of passion for sure wasn’t just
you know it wasn’t pre-meditated it was the whole thing with the house and whatnot and then he just
snapped and and killed her speaking of which how did Elliot not know who would inherit the house
seems like pretty standard figure this out when his wife dies who owns the house and supposedly
owns the inheritor I think you just said I think he was just gonna you thought he could just
bully his way into it he’s like I’m taking the house you know type thing yeah but he has the
audacity to tell sess he says what would you know about legal documents sessally it’s like well
what would you know you didn’t even read like there was a will read yeah you know there’s a legit
will read that said who gets this house that you’re obsessed with and it wasn’t you so
huh how do you not how do you not get that yeah what about other hates we already mentioned the
Christos thing I don’t understand what happened with him he just you know hit it in quiddit type
thing oh yeah he just gone I don’t know he doesn’t know he is a baby maybe I don’t know so I thought
that was weird so yeah I just thought that that twist with the Peter stuff I was like I didn’t
need that I just thought it was rushed it seemed like it’s like what yeah it’s funny break that
up because I was the next day I want to talk about was you know initially I wasn’t in on the
Peter thing obviously when she has all the photos and stuff of him you’re like oh she’s into him
I love what the man yeah yeah and she just doesn’t you know doesn’t know how to address that
but then it’s like oh she had a baby and it’s Peter so that’s supposed to be like a big uh-huh
moment and I was like whatever it seems kind of forced yeah but when she for some reason for me
because then they like stop and it goes back in time or whatever and they come back and she’s
talking to the youtuber and she tells her about the story of having Peter and when that happened
combined with the end where like Peter then gives some money to Persephone and her mom so they can
it it made a little bit more sense to me and I it tied it up I’m not I I also wasn’t necessarily
in love with this whole like oh she had a baby thing it seemed somewhat
also Peter knew that was it was her mom but he like never talked about I was like what all right well
I guess that we’re talking about it so in the middle of her life or after she moves to this neighborhood
to stay close to Peter because it’s her because Peter’s being raised by nests so they’re like
neighbors right so he’s like oh my mom died he said to like stay close you know stay close to
or whatever the case is so Peter knew but she didn’t know that Peter knew yeah I mean just was
yeah I guess I thought it was a little bit a little bit forced yeah uh philosophical question is
murder ever justifiable like she murdered that of course yeah good yeah all right what did you say
to that oh hell yeah I just you know some people are like no you can murder murder is murder but um
but yeah I mean if there’s a German machine gun nest shooting down at my Higgins landing craft
so I don’t know how beach I’m gonna go up there I’m gonna shoot that you know see in the head that’s
for sure uh follow up question was Mabel actually mad because she’s in the library and she’s
solemnly swearing to be faithful to her buzzing buddy she’s hugging herself she’s crying she’s
farting and snorting and laughing and this is all happening well she’s doing the actions of the
other person or is you know what I mean like is she is it actually just hard doing those things or is it
even if it’s not even if it’s not and she’s just she has to be hugging because she’s doing an action
so she’s hugging herself she was crying and then she definitely she’s snorted and she was laughing
so I was getting a lot of smiegool golem vibes in in the library if she was doing the low class
accent for her also that would be great that would be yeah then she’s definitely crazy about
she’s in a library like getting shushed and she’s just talking to herself you know so yeah I think
to her she’s like oh ever calls me mad Mabel because I’m associated with all these murders it’s like
people are calling you mad because you’re walking around talking to yourself like holding hands
with an imaginary person so yeah if you saw someone around town just always talking to
themself you’d think they were a little mad yeah no that’s the thing it’s better so how did
Kitty get out on the patio because they you know we joked about at the top but they said the door
was locked and someone’s like oh her you know people are the dad unlocked the dad unlocked it yeah
that was that was method made clear because she couldn’t reach the lock but dad could and she asked the
dad at one point when they’re in the hospital like so who unlocked it huh and he was like fuck you
and then you know so obviously it’s him but why would he do that because I probably just forgot or
maybe he wanted to so he’s not getting murdered just forgotten he blamed any game yeah pretty much
yeah yeah yeah with the parties that they were having it there were those like eyes when it
shuts X parties or were they just like rock is drinking parties and what’s the difference yeah I
think they were I mean were there drugs out I don’t remember but I think it was like I was
imagining like flapper you know 20s there everyone’s drinking champagne you know yeah this like
a little bit too promiscuous wasn’t that like the biggest time for babies yeah yeah yeah yeah
okay yeah I think I think they’re just getting they’re gonna after and obviously there was some
promiscuous behavior occurring you know doing it did you have anyone that you could cast for the
for the film I don’t know how they do the imaginary friend thing I was talking about Harvey which is
like an old movie where it’s sort of his best friends like a rabbit but I don’t know how you do a
movie like this with Daphne it’d be hard yeah well I mean they did a they did fight clubs so yeah
that’s true I was just thinking Helen Marin oh that’s why I had Helen Marin oh nice yeah yeah
oh my center name wrong yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah little too hot for mebel but you know what
well out did you have right hair growing up I’m gonna look I don’t think so yeah I think she’d
belong there yeah she was a fox still is oh yeah so we that’s funny well that Helen Marin there you go
she got a strawberry right here from the picture I’m looking okay perfect yeah well it’s not gonna
matter for Walter one I don’t know who would play a 15 year old version of her but that’s actually
you know they could they could get the girl from Stranger Things oh the right hair yeah she’s just got
cast X-Men right yeah yeah I think so yeah she’s probably a little older now but she could play it down
what do you give it out of five stars and his a four I think I give it a 3.75
five I thought it was it was very good I like think the my little my almost biggest issue with it was
that I didn’t want this type of book so I think I just like I said I think it was mislabeled
but it was a good read I do think there was some lingering questions at the end that I was like
yeah but I feel like most I guess you know twisty-turny books that we’ve had kind of always have some
sort of like I don’t know why they did that but nonetheless great writing made me feel for the first
time in a long time and yeah well yeah I give it a four five yeah wow I just thought we’re talking
this book is like nine hours long or like 10 hours long it felt as quick as it was but it also was
like just a good book you know it’s probably what 300 pages or something like that I have no idea
but all the characters were built up fleshed out had their own stories I think there’s obviously
going to be a couple of misses like the ones we talked about but overall I just thought it was a
really enjoyable maybe it’s a maybe it’s less than that maybe it’s like a four two five but four
five is like I for me at least it would be I’m doing things just so I can listen to the book yeah
but I think that’s tough because this is not necessarily like our wheelhouse like if we if we get a good
fantasy book or like a good sci-fi book I’m like okay I’m all like even we read that like expeditionary
force book about the marine guy like befriended an alien like it was kind of like projectile Mary
but it was like a machine or something I thought that was super like I was enjoying it and I was
like oh I can’t wait to read it but it wasn’t like that phenomenal book so I think because you’re
you’re judging on a weighted scale yeah I agree with you this is a top tier of this genre which but for
me like the highest that this genre can go is like a four four four okay you know I mean so like
but if you’re waiting it then I agree it would be probably like four point two five four five right yeah
okay so I’ll I’ll I’ll dip down to like four two five just to cut cut I mean would it get
into your top ten I guess is the question like would it kick out Daisy Jones six green lights
sounds like killing no okay so that’s yeah I guess that’s yeah no yeah anyway sorry hey I don’t want to
I don’t like keep the four five no but I just think this is more this is one of those books where
people sometimes I would say always I wish people sat there were like hey wish I read but people
some that’s like I was on the golf course saying some guys like hey can I ask your advice I was like me
me please he was like I shot a 108 the other day yes of course I thought he’d be like tell me
what to do so I could do the opposite but if someone asked me you know like my mom or something like
that is all we’ll always be like hey what are you reading like what’s a good book this is something
that I would just easily can throw out you know like bad me it fits it fits everybody everyone can read
it and I feel like everyone can enjoy it so I’ll go with a four two five all right what do we
come to next a long game of spider by James Patterson I believe right it’s his first book it’s the
end of beach season this is a we’re grasping on the beach season here keeping it keeping it alive here
yeah well I guess in Southern California it’s always beach season yeah but we still got like another
good month of beach season here and yeah it’s nine hours it’s a quick book and then there’s a
Denzel movie that has terrible rot in tomato score that you can watch afterwards yeah they I think
they made it into an Amazon show or something like that so yeah we’ll do a long game of spider and then
in early September we had a couple interviews coming up so I don’t know if any of those books have
come out yet so I’ve been I don’t even I didn’t sign an NDA so I could probably say whatever the heck I
want but either way you won’t be able to read them I don’t think but you can read a long game spider
so check that out and then we’ll catch you for that in like a week or two all right well that was
mad mabel and Keith I’ll talk to you next week all right bye now bye now
you